Fri 22 Jun 2007
The Fall of Gaza: Can Disaster Be Avoided?
Posted by Mitchell Plitnick under Uncategorized , Israel , Palestine , Egypt , United States , Hamas , Fatah , Mahmoud Abbas , Gaza , West Bank , Yasir Arafat , Arab LeagueBack in 2005, Jewish Voice for Peace took to the streets in San Francisco to protest the just-commencing Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip. More than a few people were puzzled by this action; here was a Jewish peace group apparently echoing the stance of some of the most hard-line so-called “pro-Israel” groups who opposed Israel giving up any territory at all. What was going on?
Of course, JVP was never opposed to Israel withdrawing its soldiers and checkpoints and abandoning its settlements in Gaza. But doing the right thing in the wrong way can be just as bad, in some ways perhaps worse, than doing the wrong thing, and this was what we saw happening with the Gaza withdrawal. Sadly, this prediction has come true, leaving the Palestinians split between two governing bodies, leaving Gaza in ruin and chaos and leaving Israel with an increasingly hostile and dangerous territory on its western border.
The middle of June, 2007 will be remembered by many as the time which saw Hamas and Fatah engage in horrible atrocities against one another, further aggravating the awful situation in the Gaza Strip. While Hamas has now established full, though tenuous, control over the Strip, it remains to be seen whether it is possible for them (or anyone) to actually rein in the chaos and whether they can hold on to any semblance of authority under a tightening economic blockade and a general atmosphere of lawlessness.
How did this state of affairs come about?
The situation in Gaza has roots that go back before the Israeli withdrawal in 2005. We’ll briefly review those events.
After the death of Yasir Arafat in 2004, the ability of the Palestinian Authority to govern all sectors of Palestinian society began to deteriorate rapidly. While Arafat was never able to control the many armed groups and independent parties, he was a figure sufficiently revered that he could always negotiate with all these groups, and often could find ways to get them to agree to his wishes. His successor, Mahmoud Abbas, did not and does not have anything resembling that kind of prestige.
Even under Arafat, the crushing disappointment in the Oslo Peace Process and the devastating Israeli response to the second Intifada, which began in 2000, had severely eroded Palestinians’ confidence in the Palestinian Authority. Rampant corruption and human rights abuses against Palestinians had alienated many of the people, and their turn toward Hamas as an alternative was already evident in municipal elections where Hamas was succeeding in gaining quite a lot of local control. While only a decided minority of Palestinians actually supported Hamas’ religious or political ideologies, the disgust with Fatah’s ineptitude and corruption, now exacerbated by the absence of the leadership of Arafat, caused them to vote for the available alternative. This was true in the West Bank, but much more so in Gaza.
Gaza has long been an impoverished area; it was occupied by Egypt from 1949-1967 and fared little better then than it has since Israel captured the area in 1967. This makes it a fertile ground for radical groups and extremist ideologies, much more than the West Bank. By mid-2004, when Ariel Sharon announced his decision to withdraw the Israeli settlements and occupying armies from the territory of Gaza, it was clear that Hamas had a strong foothold in Gaza and that they were quite likely more influential than the Fatah-led Palestinian Authority.
Sharon surely knew this, and, while some think that he ignored this fact, it seems far more likely that it was part of his calculations to split the Palestinians politically, as they were already split geographically. The rise of Hamas in Gaza was entirely predictable, even clear, at that early date. Equally predictable was the fact that the PA was going to have a very difficult time establishing any kind of control over Gaza. This was greatly exacerbated by Israel’s withdrawing unilaterally, rather than through an arrangement with the Palestinian Authority. Not only did this leave the PA unable to coordinate and arrange matters for taking over, it more importantly humiliated them and finished the job of undermining their credibility in Gaza.
The withdrawal of the settlements and soldiers was seen as an end to Israel’s occupation of Gaza, and in one sense, it was. But in most meaningful ways, Israel remained in control of Gaza. Gaza is completely surrounded by a wall, with only three land crossings in and out of the region. Two of those lead into Israel and one into Egypt. None of them provide enough traffic in and out of the Strip to allow for any kind of trade to flourish. Israel also controls the shoreline and the airspace. In essence, Gaza is completely isolated from the rest of the world. For an area as bereft of resources as Gaza is, this means no economic activity can develop, leading to massive unemployment, widespread malnutrition and hunger and short supplies of electricity, medical supplies, water and other basic necessities.
In the wake of the withdrawal, some Gazans, while perhaps expressing understandable rage, did themselves no favors by destroying synagogues that Israel had left standing in the Strip (despite the requests of the PA that Israel remove them precisely to avoid this) and looting and destroying greenhouses that international Jewish donors had bought and donated to the PA. These actions were harmful to Palestinian interests and to Palestinians’ image in the world’s eyes. They were seized upon by those who wished to dehumanize the Palestinians, and this “proof” of Palestinians’ alleged “inability to govern themselves” has fueled an ongoing propaganda campaign.
In January 2006, Palestinian elections were held, over the mild objections of some parts of the Israeli government and the much more strenuous objections of Mahmoud Abbas and Fatah. The Bush Administration pushed hard for these elections, despite the predictions of virtually every Middle East expert across the political spectrum that it would produce major gains for Hamas. Few predicted that Hamas would win a ruling majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council, but while the extent of Hamas’ victory came as a surprise, it was clear to anyone paying attention that Hamas would become a major party in the PA at the least.
The Hamas victory sent waves of panic throughout the world. The US, Israel and the European Union almost immediately cut off aid to the Palestinian Authority, and this had its most devastating effect in Gaza. Most of the Arab leadership was equally terrified at the Hamas victory, and even more at the prospect that they might prove successful in governing the Palestinian Territories. For their part, Hamas proved unable to find the flexibility necessary to lead the Palestinians in dealings with Israel and the US, or even the Arab League. In the end, Hamas had to allow Mahmoud Abbas to conduct most foreign relations as he saw fit, with the only proviso being that any full or partial peace deal with Israel would need to be submitted to a popular referendum.
The 2006 election did not fully decide the question of Palestinian leadership. As Gaza wilted under the pressure of international sanctions, Fatah refused to enter a government of national unity, preferring to try to undermine the new government politically. Israel generally maintained its distance from the internal Palestinian conflict, though the lack of unity and the growing infighting clearly pleased the Olmert government, despite the growing instability that must threaten the security of Israelis. The US, on the other hand, openly supported Fatah. This was a mixed blessing for Abbas. He received the US’ diplomatic support, which also meant that he would receive support from Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt. Abbas also occasionally received material support, sometimes in arms sometimes in cash, from the US. But this support weakened him considerably in Palestinian eyes, where he is seen more and more as an American lackey. The support was also inconsistent, as some sectors tried to marginalize Abbas as irrelevant or even as part of the new “terrorist government.”
In June 2006, a group of Palestinians infiltrated an Israeli army post inside Israel and kidnapped or captured (depending on your point of view) an Israeli soldier. The Israeli response had little connection to retrieving the young man, but was devastating to Gaza. Though it was soon overshadowed by the war in Lebanon, Israel pounded Gaza through much of the summer, including destroying a major power plant. Gaza sank further into chaos and despair. Despite a cease-fire agreement in late 2006, Qassam rockets from Gaza were consistently fired at the western Negev in Israel, mostly at the working class town of Sderot. While Hamas was likely not responsible for the rocket fire, they also did nothing to prevent it. On several occasions, including in June of 2007, Israel would hit Gaza hard again as a result. Israel also reinforced the crippling blows against Hamas by imprisoning dozens of the party’s leaders and legislators.
In December 2006, tensions between Hamas and Fatah erupted into full-scale fighting in Ramallah. Despite Saudi intervention and the formation of a Palestinian Unity Government, fighting ebbed and flowed until May 2007. The flare-ups generally escalated to a near-boiling point, but the leaderships of both parties managed to contain the violence temporarily, avoiding decisive battles. But in May, large scale fighting erupted again, and Hamas probably felt that their performance in these battles warranted more confidence in their ability to defeat Fatah.
By mid-June, the Bush Administration had reinforced their rhetoric with action, increasing the flow of arms to Fatah. This was also likely a factor in Hamas deciding that more decisive action was necessary, lest Fatah build too big an advantage. In any case, in a matter of less than five days, Hamas had complete control of the Gaza Strip. The fighting featured many acts of brutality, including a bound man being thrown from a roof and killing of opposition fighters in hospital beds.
Reactions
Mahmoud Abbas responded to the Hamas victory in Gaza by dissolving the existing government and installing an emergency government consisting of unaffiliated technocrats. He called the Hamas takeover in Gaza a coup, and both sides have blamed the other for the infighting boiling over and the resulting split. Abbas has outlawed Hamas’ militias and executive force, though not the political party. He also accused Hamas of attempting to assassinate him and claimed to have video evidence to this effect.
Hamas has threatened a major uprising if Fatah tries to clamp down on the group in the West Bank. Fatah fighters with the al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigade stormed the Hamas controlled Parliament on June 16 in Ramallah, and actions against Hamas strongholds have been ongoing. Hamas continues to maintain that it is the legitimate ruling party in all of the Palestinian Territories while being able to exercise power only in Gaza. They note that the current government is in power by appointment, while they won an election.
Palestinians are generally displeased with both parties in this whole episode. The Al Quds newspaper reported on June 19 that 75% of Palestinians opposed Hamas’ takeover of Gaza, that 54% supported Abbas’ disbanding the government and 51% said both parties were equally responsible for the conflict between them.
Israel and the United States have moved quickly to bolster the new Abbas government. Israel has promised to finally release the tax money it has withheld form the PA since the January 2006 elections (Note: Israel collects taxes on various services, such as water, electricity etc. and is supposed to pass that money on to the PA).
The US has announced that it will lift the economic blockade against the PA, on condition that no money goes through Hamas’ hands in Gaza. In a bizarre turn, many groups and individuals that were hindering aid to the PA for years, well before the Hamas victory, are now among those who are calling for major increases in aid to Abbas.
Israel has also announced that Egypt will host a summit including itself, Jordan and the PA to resume peace talks. The announcement included many optimistic words, which is important for Abbas since he will need to demonstrate that he can make real and significant progress with Israel now that Hamas is out of the way.
The Arab world is mostly lining up behind Abbas, seeing this, in part, as another front in the face-off between much of the Arab world on one side and Syria, Iran and their various allies in the region on the other. Indeed, immediately following the Israel-PA-Jordan summit, Egypt plans to convene talks with Saudi Arabia about forming a united Arab bloc against Hamas.
Finally, many pundits are seeing this as the creation of two Palestinian states–one in Gaza, an Islamic state which cannot abide any compromise with Israel and the other a secular state in the West Bank which will. Others see the split as less permanent and more reflective of both the physical separation of Gaza and the West Bank and the different conditions in each place.
Analysis: What’s next?
The first thing one sees when looking at the current split among the Palestinians is that the situation is not one that can last. It’s eminently clear that the forces arrayed against Hamas–the US, Israel, Fatah, the moderate Arab states, the EU–are not going to be content with the status quo. Fatah in particular will not just sit idly by and let some 1.5 million Palestinians be governed by someone else. They will have considerable support from outside in pressing Hamas, politically, economically and militarily. For its part, Hamas has already shown they can and will act aggressively in pursuing their own position atop Palestinian society.
Right now, reconciliation between Fatah and Hamas does not seem realistic and there is no third option in the Palestinian polity. This would seem to indicate that, at least for the time being, these two groups will continue to work against one another and that the opportunity to engage the broad spectrum of the Palestinian people by dealing with a broad-based government with Abbas at its head is lost. Still, even though the leaders of Fatah and Hamas have done little more than pay lip service to the value of national unity among the Palestinians, this value remains strong among the Palestinian populace. That might pressure change and force the two groups together at some point. But such a possibility is not on the radar right now.
On the other hand, the view that seems to be dominating both Washington and Jerusalem right now is quite distorted. It seems that the US and Israel believe that they can crush Hamas for good by strengthening Abbas with a peace summit and encouraging aggressive actions against Hamas in the West Bank. The latter is a foolish strategy, and one that has repeatedly bolstered Hamas, rather than weakened it. Indeed, virtually every attempt by Israel, the US and much of the rest of the world to harm Hamas has helped them over the years, and if foreign hands are seen too clearly in Fatah’s attacks on Hamas, support for Fatah, even from within, will quickly wither.
Many analysts, including this one, have been urging for some time that Hamas must be dealt with, not shunned. By engaging Hamas and forcing them into politics rather than ideological grandstanding, they will be forced to confront the ineffectiveness of their more extreme positions, which is precisely what happened after the election. This is why they were forced to allow Abbas to represent the Palestinian government in the Arab League vote on their peace proposal, and to allow him to keep his leading position in any negotiations and contacts with Israel.
Even the freeing up of funds is going to bite Abbas, as he will be hamstrung by restrictions to spend not only US aid, but even the tax money that is Palestinian and has been illegally withheld by Israel, only in the West Bank. That will not be acceptable on the Palestinian street, either in Gaza City or Ramallah.
The summit is fine for what it’s worth, but what happens when it fails to bring about truly significant concessions for Abbas?
That Abbas will not come back to Ramallah bearing an acceptable final status resolution is inevitable. The only way he can do that is to offer at least the hope that Israel can be convinced to return to something close to the 1967 borders, to share Jerusalem and to agree to acknowledge the refugees’ right of return, allow a token number back to Israel and compensate the rest. Abbas need not actually deliver all of that. But the whole idea of bolstering Abbas with a summit rests on the presumption that a sufficient number of Palestinians can be convinced that Abbas, freed of the burden of Hamas, can deliver the minimal Palestinian demands some time in the near future. Abbas will need to show some concrete indication that he can pull this off, and he will have to do so with a very skeptical audience. The Olmert government is far too weak to even signal the possibility of such concessions, much less actually make them.
Abbas is walking a difficult tightrope. For all the pictures being painted of Hamas in Gaza and Fatah in the West Bank, both parties still have a significant presence in both areas. If Abbas is seen as selling out Palestinian interests to the US and Israel, Hamas will have the popular support and the ability to threaten, and possibly topple, him in the West Bank as well. Meanwhile, in Gaza, Fatah is sure to try to hasten Hamas’ demise, and reports indicate that Fatah attacks on Hamas positions in the West Bank are ongoing.
It is far from certain that Fatah would win an all-out battle for the West Bank. But it is very likely that Israel would be drawn into a conflict there, either to defend Fatah or because some Palestinians decide to bring them in with an attack on Israelis. The resulting violence would expand very quickly, and would not only quickly bring back, and possibly surpass, the worst days of the last intifada, but is likely to spark off conflicts in other areas of the Middle East. There is very little good that can come of Fatah’s aggressive actions against Hamas in the West Bank, and the potential for a great deal of harm.
Much has been made of Iranian backing of Hamas, which tends to cast this as another chapter in the struggle between the US/Israel and Iran. While it would be wrong to say that this is not a factor, it is not one that should be over-emphasized. Hamas’ backing by Iran is a marriage of necessity. With Saudi Arabia unambiguously hostile to Hamas, and most other Arab states following their lead, Iran is a necessary lifeline. But Hamas is first and foremost a Palestinian nationalist group, and their being an Islamist group is their expression of Palestinian nationalism. They will cooperate with Iran to get the needed support, but there are limits to that partnership, and Hamas will likely continue to chart their own course.
Egypt, however, has other concerns. Hamas originated as an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, a long-standing Islamist group, and one which is pressing for more influence in Egypt. Where Hamas and Iran are strange bedfellows, Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood are natural partners; one might even say long-lost relatives. This drives Egyptian horror at Hamas’ undisputed control of Gaza, right on their doorstep.
And there are new concerns, ones which Israel had better take very seriously. For quite some time now, we have heard from Mahmoud Abbas as well as from Hamas leaders of attempts by al-Qaeda and similar groups to gain a foothold within the Palestinian Territories. Thus far, these have been rebuffed, and nothing in the current developments will make either Fatah or Hamas more receptive to such groups. But the general chaos in Gaza may well make it much more difficult for the Palestinians to keep these groups out, and if Hamas is proven to be a failure, the radical elements in Palestinian society are going to turn not to more moderate elements, but to still more radical ones, giving these groups a foothold. This would be exceedingly dangerous for Israelis. Whatever one thinks of Hamas or Fatah, they are not the same at all as al-Qaeda, simplistic Western propaganda notwithstanding. The last thing any Israeli civilian wants is to see al-Qaeda operating on their doorstep.
The simple fact is that there can never be any progress between Israel and the Palestinians if a big chunk of the Palestinian community, the Islamists, are excluded from the process. Not only will many other Palestinians support their right to be heard, but groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad can easily derail any peace process with attacks on Israelis, as they have so often done in the past. They need to be engaged so they will have incentive to refrain from such actions. The alternative is not just failure, it is a brand of radicalism that will be much worse.
Any crisis contains in it the seeds of progress. These opportunities have been routinely missed by all parties. This one has the potential for serious consequences throughout the region, as well as the potential to make any kind of peace unrealistic for years to come. That must not be allowed to happen. Israel, the US, the PA, Hamas, the UN, the Arab League, indeed, the entire world has got to allow good judgment and cooler heads to prevail in this matter. If everyone continues to only pursue their own political ends, disaster is sure to follow. But history has witnessed occasions where people with understanding of prevailing conditions and dynamics and sufficient diplomatic skill overcome politics to bring about significant progress, and it is not unusual for such things to happen just at the brink of disaster. Let’s hope that is the course that is chosen. In fact, let’s demand it.
82 Responses to “The Fall of Gaza: Can Disaster Be Avoided?”
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June 22nd, 2007 at 9:18 pm
Mitchel wrote:
“where he {Abbas} is seen more and more as an American lackey”
He is an American lackey and I knew this from the first time I saw him, just like I knew that Arafat was a crazy man–on par with Charles Manson, only with an army.
Whereas Arafat would lie to Israel and the “West”, the duality in Abbas is equally not being truthful to his own people about his intent.
But we are back to blaming Israel every time a sewer pipe ruptures in Damascus.
“The Israeli response had little connection to retrieving the young man, but was devastating to Gaza”
I agree that the Israeli response was heavy handed.
“While Hamas was likely not responsible for the rocket fire, they also did nothing to prevent it. . . On several occasions, including in June of 2007, Israel would hit Gaza hard again”
I am less critical when the rockets are deliberately targeting civilians. No nation would or could allow this. Imagine Mexican rockets consistantly crossing the border of San Antonio? After all, Texas is really Mexico, right? How long before our President goes ape? . . Yep, about that long.
“This one has the potential for serious consequences throughout the region, ”
Which is why I repeat:
Egypt annexes Gaza and Jordan takes control of WB. We get to live our lives without an eternal and never ending battle on TV and internet news.
Whatever would we do with our free time then??
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:44 am
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June 23rd, 2007 at 3:43 am
This is easily the best analysis I have seen of the Hamas takeover of Gaza. I find absolutely nothing in the analysis with which I could disagree.
June 23rd, 2007 at 7:55 am
A reasonably good analysis of the situation in Gaza, with an important exception. You seem to minimize the role the U.S. and Israel have played in this disaster by their refusal to recognize a fair and democratically elected Hamas government in Gaza. Since that election their efforts have been consistently to divide Hamas and Fatah and contribute to division in Palestinian politics and the general misery of the Palestinian people. Israel and the U.S are not interested in creating stability and peace but in making it more and more impossible for a fair resolution to this conflict to take place.
June 23rd, 2007 at 8:57 am
I absolutely agree with Judy Neuuebel . The role that Israel and the U.S. played in this conflict was a huge factor in the conflict between Hamas and Fatah .And it was inevitable that the rejection of the democratically elected government as well as the cutting off of aid to them would result in disaster.
It seems to me that Israel is very happy with that situation…divide and conquer, so to speak..get the Palestinians to kill each other off, makes it easier for Israel to get rid of them .The U.S. just goes along with what Israel wants .And ,sadly, peace in the region seems farther and farther away.
June 23rd, 2007 at 11:40 am
Judy, Bob and others:
Hamas was democratically elected, true enough. But that Parliament opted to void previous commitments and treaties signed by Mr. Arafat. Generally speaking, Hamas chose war. Why then should Israel be expected to be cooperative? If Hamas chose peace, (of at a minimum to be bound by previous agreements) then your point would be more valid.
If Mexico (for example) became a democratically elected (yet rogue) government, that declared its intent to violently reclaim the U.S. Southwest, would the USA be expected to go on with business as usual?
What Hamas did was go from a ‘détente to a declaration of war. What Israel did was react naturally, as most countries would.
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:24 pm
I have a few comments to make on this piece by Mitchell Plitnick. Meanwhile, for a different perspective, read this:
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MDg2NTNkOTM0ZjI5ZTEzNzBjNzc4ODNjZjRhMmRlZjQ=
June 23rd, 2007 at 2:40 pm
The point is that it is only with one’s enemies that peace can be made; not with friends, as Yitzhak Rabin famously said. As long as the U.S. and Israel are trying to avoid Hamas, they are barking up the wrong tree. Hamas is the group which can deliver peace, and that is because ironically they are the terrorists (du jour). Unfortunately, Israel has over-played its hand and just about done Abbas in with his own people. Now he is on life-support and along with him hopes for a two-state solution. If this cannot be worked out, the world will insist on a one-state solution, i.e., that the Palestinians be made full citizens of Israel within the borders of Israel.
June 23rd, 2007 at 4:33 pm
As long as the U.S. and Israel are trying to avoid Hamas, they are barking up the wrong tree.>>>>
John,
Chamberlain began negotiating with the Nazi party. Should the Allies have continued negotiations with the Nazi party? What’s the difference between negotiating with one genocidal regime and negotiating with another genocidal regime?
June 23rd, 2007 at 5:50 pm
Steve, your analogy fails. The Nazis were not under British occupation. The Wehrmacht was not an insurgent militia. We are talking about asymmetrical warfare against a people without an army living in territory which Israel has occupied for forty years now (How long, O Lord?). You stop throwing around the term “genocidal,” and I’ll quit throwing around the terms “ethnic cleansing” and “state sponsored terrorism.” OK? Israel is more afraid of Abbas than they are of Hamas, because they can’t stall any longer. They are going to have to negotiate with Abbas now and actually cough up some results quick. Trouble is they have so damaged the man in the eyes of his people that he is now practically viewed as a collaborator and an agent of the occupation. When he takes the money, it’s going to look like payoff money to the people.
June 23rd, 2007 at 7:16 pm
John’s evil twin:
If the world thinks it can continue to periodically change Israels borders and rights (to exist within them in peace), it (and you) are sadly mistaken.
Rabin was incorrect. Of course peace is to be made between enemys, how abserd to think otherwise. However, there is a vast difference between an enemy ‘in kind’ and an enemy of everyone, including the enemy’s own population. If not (e.g., if you were right) then all anyone would need to do to win any conflict is become dishonorable, anti-civilian, totalitarian and terroristic.
After WW2 an astounding 900 Japanese military were hung for war crimes on the small island of Guam alone. That was also an act of “making peace with one’s enemy”.
June 23rd, 2007 at 7:49 pm
Steve, your analogy fails. The Nazis were not under British occupation.>>>>
John,
This has nothing to do with so-called “occupation” and you know it. Hamas terrorists are genocidal maniacs, no different than the Nazis. Maybe worse. Fatah are also Muslim terrorists. Fatah’s armed terrorist wing is the Al Aska Martyrs Brigade; responsible for scores of suicide bombings. This is who Bush and Olmert are in bed with.
Nazis did not use their children as suicide bomberers.
You would negotiate with genocidal murderers John. This speaks to your own personal character, does it not?
June 23rd, 2007 at 8:38 pm
Hamas terrorists are genocidal maniacs, no different than the Nazis. Maybe worse.
The intifada is worse than the Holocaust?? Really???
Nazis did not use their children as suicide bomberers.
And Hamas hasn’t killed six million Jews either.
You would negotiate with genocidal murderers John. This speaks to your own personal character, does it not?
No, I think it speaks to “your own personal character” that you keep attacking mine. Get a grip, Steve.
if you were right) then all anyone would need to do to win any conflict is become dishonorable, anti-civilian, totalitarian and terroristic.
This isn’t “any conflict.” It’s a forty year illegal occupation. This is not the U.S. vs. the Army of the Empire of Japan. It’s asymmetrical warfare, an insurgent militia fighting for a people with no army against an Occupying Power with the fifth strongest military in the world including a nuclear arsenal.
Moralize all you want about the vile enemy, but the choice remains: either negotiate with the terrorists and work out something everyone can live with, or else the insurgents (or al Qaeda, as Mitchell points out!) will continue blowing up Israeli civilians till hell freezes over. What kind of life is that for the Israelis?
The problem with my argument of course is not that it doesn’t make sense, but that the Israelis long ago made the cynical calculation that their civilian casualties were a small price to pay in order to avoid sincere negotiations and to pursue their policy of silent annexation. The last thing they want is to negotiate before the de facto annexation is complete. For all their bluster and mock outrage, the politicians do not care about the Israeli casualties. It keeps them in office, keeps the program of annexation going. They seem to have backed themselves into a corner now, starting with the murder of Yasir Arafat. Now what?
June 23rd, 2007 at 8:50 pm
They seem to have backed themselves into a corner now, starting with the murder of Yasir Arafat.>>>>
The “murder” of Yasir Arafat? John, are you a member of the 9/11 Truth Movement?
June 23rd, 2007 at 9:10 pm
The intifada is worse than the Holocaust?? Really???>>>>>
The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was one Muhammed Amin al-Husseini. He was appointed in the early 1920s by British High Commissioner, Herbert Samuel in the vain hope of appeasing the Arabs. Al-Husseini was responsible for the murderous riots against the Jews in the nineteen twenties and nineteen thirties. He was forced into exile in 1937.
At the Nuremberg Trials, Eichmann’s deputy Dieter Wisliceny (subsequently executed as a war criminal) testified:
“The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan. … He was one of Eichmann’s best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chamber of Auschwitz.”
Haj Amin al-Husseini died in exile in 1974. His place as leader of the nationalist Palestinian Arabs was taken by his nephew Mohammed Abdel-Raouf Arafat As Qudwa al-Hussaeini, better known as Yasser Arafat. In August 2002, Arafat gave an interview in which he referred to “our hero al-Husseini” as a symbol of Palestinian Arab resistance.
June 23rd, 2007 at 10:16 pm
Eichmann’s deputy Dieter Wisliceny (subsequently executed as a war criminal) testified….
Here’s the affadavit of Wisliceny’s testimony “substantially the same as the testimony given by Wisliceny on direct examination before the International Military Tribunal at Nurnberg, 3 January 1946.” Steve, I can’t find the words you quote, can you? Are you sure about this???
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Wisliceny.htm
The Mufti was a two-bit wannabe Nazi-collaborator just like Yitzhaq Shamir and Lehi. Neither got anywhere with the Nazis who considered the Arabs and Jews alike to be vermin. He proposed a pan-Arab revolt to Hilter which he liked. He fled arrest by the Brits in the Arab rebellion of 1937.
None of the biographies of the Mufti mention any relations at all with Himmler or his purported “best friend” Eichmann. There is no evidence he even really knew about the Holocaust. Even Ben-Gurion did not know about it until it was too late.
The Mufti was not on the official index of war criminals at Nuremberg. They had no interest in him there.
If they had been interested in him, they could easily have arrested him in Lebanon after the war and abducted him like Eichmann. He was nothing.
Arafat called him “Uncle.” He was a relative. The al-Husseini family was the most prominent Arab family in Ottoman Palestine’s two-clan system.
The Shaw Commission cleared the Mufti of responsibility for causing the riots (intifada) of 1929, though they said he could have done more to stop them. However the Brits only had 292 policemen in Palestine and 100 soldiers, so they were doing a little butt-covering there.
A jerk? Yes. War criminal? No.
June 24th, 2007 at 12:13 am
“This isn’t “any conflict.” It’s a forty year illegal occupation.”
The mark of a true propagandist is how no opportunity is missed to vilify the target by inserting as many objectionable concepts into each phrase as humanly possible. Next week it may become a “a forty LONG year illegal GENOCIDAL occupation, WITH MALACE OF FORETHOUGHT.”
It can not be “illegal” because no tribunal of competent jurisdiction as made such a ruling of law. Rationalize as you will but no court proceeding, no conviction, only arbitrary and capricious accusations.
There can likewise be no “occupation” because it remains patently unclear who is “occupying” whom. As proven (yet again) by the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, (where distinctly Jewish
neighborhoods have steadily been found since the days of Herod I and before) the Israelis want nothing better then to get done with the conflict and get on with their lives.
John: You really have no idea what you are talking about. This “conflict” lingers on seemingly forever because it is loosely prophesized in the Muslim Scriptures and widely seen among radical elements as the offset of the foretold “judgment day”. Your ideas therefore suck. In any other conflict in the world, some conclusion would have been reached decades ago. Except that the only “conclusion” acceptable to the radicals is an Islamic Caliphate with its capitol in Jerusalem. All of this other bullsh*t is just bullsh*t. Land, not land; citizens, not citizens; fences, not fences; withdrawal, not withdrawal; peace talks, not peace talks; are all a procession towards the same goal. A ‘Taliban’ type religious government in each and every capitol in the entire world. Israel has the profound misfortune of residing on the front line. For that sad luck, they are blamed for every injustice in the world, including controlling and manipulating the world. Broken record.
“either negotiate with the terrorists and work out something everyone can live with”
Are you listening to yourself speak? “terrorists . . that everyone can live with”? If not so sad and pathetic, this comment would be hilarious.
“their civilian casualties were a small price to pay in order to avoid sincere negotiations”
You lack understanding of the typical Jewish mind and emotional underpinnings. You simply take a statement well recognized as applying to the Arab side and reverse polarity.
“starting with the murder of Yasir Arafat”
I believe Arafat was murdered but what makes you think you know by who? Of course you don’t. He could have been offend by the Egyptians or even by his own radical elements. Once again, the Jews get the blame.
“There is no evidence he even really knew about the Holocaust.”
There is such evidence. It relates to a famous speech he made while on tour in Europe, when he stated that there were 11-million Jews on earth, when everyone knew that there were 16-million. Everyone of course, except the highest level Nazi command.
He later admitted such privity but stated that his intent was NOT to encourage the mass extermination of Jews, only to have them kept out of his neighborhood.
June 24th, 2007 at 5:41 am
Steve, I can’t find the words you quote, can you? Are you sure about this>>>>>>
John, I have quoted directly from the following article. Take a look. Let me know what you think. I have long considered this a reliable and factual website (source). From all my reading, this Grand Mufti was an extremely charismatic, powerful and dangerous man. He has much blood on his hands.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php
June 24th, 2007 at 6:32 am
From the linked article:
“He {Al Husseini} killed Jews at every opportunity, but also eliminated Arabs who did not support his campaign of violence.”
All told, the estimated number of moderate and peace-mongering Palestinian-Arabs, murdered by death-squads under the ultimate control of the Mufti numbered 3,500. Many of these Arabs were intellectuals and community leaders, as well as some clerics, who opposed his brutal tactics and saw advantages to cooperation with the resourceful and industrious Jews. This fact tells us at least as much as the rest of the story. The reason we do not have peace today, has NOTHING to do with land disputes or abuse of Arabs. These issues came later when excuses were needed and subsequently invented. Essentially, the crime was invented to fit the punishment. In reality, the Arab longing for peaceful relations was strangled by other Arabs and such continues to this day.
“In 1929, major Arab riots were instigated against the Jews of Palestine. They began when al-Husseini falsely accused Jews of defiling and endangering local mosques, including al-Aqsa.” Geezze, what an irony. This was the exact same excuse Arafat used to spawn the 2nd “intafata”. Like uncle, like nephew.
“The call went out to the Arab masses: “Izbah Al-Yahud!” — “Slaughter the Jews!” After the killing of Jews in Hebron, the Mufti disseminated photographs of slaughtered Jews with the claim that the dead were Arabs killed by Jews.”
No commentary needed. This sums it up.
Husseini was a very bad man and his nephew did not fall far from the tree.
In similar (parallel) conditions, every single Arab government involved with the 1948 war against Israel, was overthrown by a violent coup in the years that followed.
John’s twin would have us believe that the militant Arab factions were understandably protecting their own. Which of course does NOT explain the targeted bloody killings of the rival Arab leadership and all these coup-de- gras ‘.
June 24th, 2007 at 6:35 am
It can not be “illegal” because no tribunal of competent jurisdiction as made such a ruling of law. Rationalize as you will but no court proceeding, no conviction, only arbitrary and capricious accusations.
International Court of Justice, The Hague. Their ruling, 9th July 2004. Have you ever sat down and read this? I guess not, or you wouldn’t keep repeating the same ridiculous arguments:
http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Documents/icj20040709.pdf
After you read it, if you read it, you really have no idea what you are talking about.
John, I have quoted directly from the following article.
Notice they give no documentation, Steve. Where did they get the quote from? I have found the quote repeated numerous times on the web but never with a reference to the original source. You may have a totally fabricated quotation, Steve. There are lots of compeletely made-up false tales about the Mufti - on the web, simply because there is an anti-Muslim audience ready and willing to lap them up and hardly anyone who is interested in fact-checking because the man was a jerk to begin with. Just bear in mind you may be quoting from a source as reliable as the National Enquirer. When it comes to the Mufti, believe nothing you hear or read unless it is documented and proven accurate. It may well have originated from a source which has no scruples against fabricating “evidence” to show that Muslims are evil beasts and that their blood-thirsty hatred of Jews is the explanation for everything. If it’s too bad to be true, it probably is! Find the Nuremberg transcript.
This is not about the Mufti or Yassir Arafat. The occupation is not about the Mufti or Yassir Arafat. The current crisis in Gaza and the West Bank is not about the Mufti or Yasser Arafat. This thread is not about the Mufti or Yasser Arafat, gentlemen.
As Mitchell said,
The simple fact is that there can never be any progress between Israel and the Palestinians if a big chunk of the Palestinian community, the Islamists, are excluded from the process. Not only will many other Palestinians support their right to be heard, but groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad can easily derail any peace process with attacks on Israelis, as they have so often done in the past. They need to be engaged so they will have incentive to refrain from such actions. The alternative is not just failure, it is a brand of radicalism that will be much worse.
Any crisis contains in it the seeds of progress. These opportunities have been routinely missed by all parties. This one has the potential for serious consequences throughout the region, as well as the potential to make any kind of peace unrealistic for years to come. That must not be allowed to happen. Israel, the US, the PA, Hamas, the UN, the Arab League, indeed, the entire world has got to allow good judgment and cooler heads to prevail in this matter. If everyone continues to only pursue their own political ends, disaster is sure to follow.
June 24th, 2007 at 6:57 am
From the linked article
All BS, too. Chock full of misrepresentations, Isidor. If you want to dish up some Arab-demonizing, Muslims-are-evil-fiends quotes, at least document and fact-check them first, OK? Oh, and one more thing. It’s not about the Mufti or Arafat. And everybody knows they were bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, men. Now, let’s stop digging up their bodies to play with and move on to the living. Go wash your hands.
Any crisis contains in it the seeds of progress. These opportunities have been routinely missed by all parties. This one has the potential for serious consequences throughout the region, as well as the potential to make any kind of peace unrealistic for years to come. That must not be allowed to happen. Israel, the US, the PA, Hamas, the UN, the Arab League, indeed, the entire world has got to allow good judgment and cooler heads to prevail in this matter. If everyone continues to only pursue their own political ends, disaster is sure to follow.
June 24th, 2007 at 7:06 am
“Fifty-nine percent of Palestinians surveyed in a 21 June 2007 poll blame Fateh and Hamas for last weeks intra-Palestinian fighting and 71 percent said they consider both groups to be the “loser.” The survey, conducted by the Ramallah-based Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PSR), found that while 75 percent want early presidential and parliamentary elections, 40 percent said they would not participate if the race was between Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and Ismail Haniyeh. Abbas would slightly edge out Hanyieh with 49 percent of the vote compared to Hanyieh’s 42 percent. The numbers change dramatically if imprisoned Fateh leader Marwan Barghouthi replaced Abbas in the race.”
http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=14056&CategoryId=5
June 24th, 2007 at 7:08 am
“The numbers change dramatically if imprisoned Fateh leader Marwan Barghouthi replaced Abbas in the race.”
Oh, and Marwan Barghouti is also a bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, man. But at least his is more current than the two dead guys. Thank you.
June 24th, 2007 at 7:35 am
John:
Though this point is probably a constant annoyance to you. Only U.N. Security Council Resolutions, duly passed and ratified, result in “international Law” which is binding on unwilling parties. Ordinary U.N. resolutions are merely popularity contests, not unlike high school presidential elections. Moreover, that is the way it should be because the United Nations G.A. voting roles have:
1) Zero relationship to population numbers worldwide
2) Have historically been quite biased, based on political, economic and financial influences.
The “Court of Justice” you reference is, in the clear light of day, a quaisi-judicial entity, chartered and administered by a voting role consisting of a large percentage of war-lords, who do NOT permit their own people free speech, free press and certainly not free vote and forget fair and impartial courts. It all looks very official but then again, so did Hitler’s Reichstag, with their sig-heil opening ceremonies and all. Such a “court” can not (and should not) become seminal to the true lawmaking body, the Security Counsel. For there to be such a tribunal court, it would have to itself be chartered not by the U.N. General Assembly, which often votes in competition with the Security Counsel, but either by the Security Counsel or some other method whereby the parties effected by this Court would have adequate rights and the assurance of impartiality.
I have recently discovered an interesting fact that loosely applies to this subject:
The U.S. Federal Court is regulated by the Applicable Circuit Court of Appeals. The various state courts are administered by the respective state appellate divisions and Supreme courts. But what would happen if the State Court, who’s judges are appointed by the governor and legislature were to be very “liberal” (because voters in that state have historically been themselves liberal) while the same state’s Federal Division were reliant on appointments by the U.S. President, who has been a Republican for the past 6 out of 9 terms? This is not a wild analogy. It actually has occurred in quite a few places. The result is controlled chaos. The Federal Bench goes about it’s business, interpreting state law from the conservative point of view and the State Courts rule on the same issues and same law, very differently. Yet, you may never hear a lawyer or judge reference this gaping defect in the system. Each side basically goes about its business ignoring the rulings of the other.
The “International Court of Justice” is a downgrade from the above scenario because it is improperly chartered to rule on Security Counsel matters. U.N.S.C. 242 has never been adjudicated as to its exact meaning. Nor could it be by the court you rely on. Remember I said: “competent jurisdiction”. The I.C.J. does not qualify. If it did, then the Security Counsel would surely back it’s decisions up with binding actions. Of course, they do not. In reality, the world’s laws are administered by the Security Counsel. The U.N.G.A. is given a honorary role, which it exploits to the maximum extent possible. You live in the USA, which holds veto power in the S.C. What would you say if some day soon, the U.N.G.A. voted that Arizona, Texas, N.M. and southern California were rightfully the property of Mexico? Would a I.C.J. ruling affirming that vote have any authority? It lacks competent jurisdiction. And thank God for that.
June 24th, 2007 at 7:42 am
Regaring the linked article on Grand Mufti:
A small amount of this information is new to me. Most of it is well documented in such titles as “Semites and Anti Semites” and elsewhere. Do you suggest that the photo of the Mufti and Hitler were doctored with an early (1950’s) version of Adobe Photoshop?
Mein Camph was printed in Arabic and widely circulated in Palestine and elsewhere in the M.E. It was never printed in Hebrew. Various Nazi war criminals were welcomed into Arab nations after the war. Saddam was himself an Arab Nazi, complete with swastika flag, until he realized that Hitler was not alive and not living in Argentina and therefore, not to be returning. He then aligned with the next best thing, a pusedo Soviet styled communist (Stallinist) regime (Baath).
June 24th, 2007 at 8:36 am
The “International Court of Justice” is a downgrade from the above scenario because it is improperly chartered to rule on Security Counsel matters. U.N.S.C. 242 has never been adjudicated as to its exact meaning.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
You are full of it, as usual. The ICJ in the Hague was chartered by Article 92 and following of the United Nations Charter:
http://www.liechtenstein-icj-case.li/en_fall/82.html
242 was adjudicated in the document you didn’t read. Also by the meeting of the principals of the Geneva Convention who repeatedly re-affirmed that it means exactly what everyone but Israel thinks it means.
Why, why, why must you repeat ad infinitum ad nauseam the same old worn-out fallacious arguments, Isidor? Don’t you get tired of that???? You don’t have your facts straight.
June 24th, 2007 at 8:59 am
A few comments on this article:
Mitchell Plitnick wrote: “Back in 2005, Jewish Voice for Peace took to the streets in San Francisco to protest the just-commencing Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip. More than a few people were puzzled by this action; here was a Jewish peace group apparently echoing the stance of some of the most hard-line so-called “pro-Israel” groups who opposed Israel giving up any territory at all. What was going on?
Of course, JVP was never opposed to Israel withdrawing its soldiers and checkpoints and abandoning its settlements in Gaza. But doing the right thing in the wrong way can be just as bad, in some ways perhaps worse, than doing the wrong thing, and this was what we saw happening with the Gaza withdrawal. Sadly, this prediction has come true, leaving the Palestinians split between two governing bodies, leaving Gaza in ruin and chaos and leaving Israel with an increasingly hostile and dangerous territory on its western border.”
(I think it could be fairly argued, withdrawing from all the territories all at once would not only be foolhardy, it would be suicidal. During the Oslo years there was an interim period (following the signing of the Declaration or Principles) in order to establish and build confidence prior to the final status agreements. One only need look at what the Palestinians did with Israel’s August 2005 gesture to see what withdrawing from all the territories would entail for Israel’s Jewish citizens. Israel has seen nothing but terrorism, rocket attacks, kidnappings and violence since she completely withdrew from Gaza. Is there any reason to conclude we would not have witnessed the very same lawlessness in the West Bank?)
Mitchell wrote: “After the death of Yasir Arafat in 2004, the ability of the Palestinian Authority to govern all sectors of Palestinian society began to deteriorate rapidly. While Arafat was never able to control the many armed groups and independent parties, he was a figure sufficiently revered that he could always negotiate with all these groups, and often could find ways to get them to agree to his wishes. His successor, Mahmoud Abbas, did not and does not have anything resembling that kind of prestige.”
(Yasir Arafat never did anything to control the many armed groups. Quite the opposite. Then there were the “revolving door” of symbolic arrests and then the terrorists were summarily released. Arafat actively recruited and encouraged terrorism. He financed it; incited it; it was and still is taught in the Palestinian classrooms; it is in the Palestinian textbooks, in the media, etc. Palestinian culture is filled with hate and genocide. It’s a sick culture of violence and death; martydom.
According to Professor Ephraim Karsh, in the entire two decades of Israeli occupation preceding the Oslo accords, some 400 Israelis were murdered; between the conclusion of that “peace” agreement and 2002, twice as many lost their lives in terrorist attacks. If the occupation was the cause of terrorism, why was terrorism sparse during the years of actual occupation, why did it increase dramatically with the prospect of the end of the occupation, and why did it escalate into open war upon Israel’s most far-reaching concessions ever? Since January 1997, 99 percent of the Palestinian population of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip have not lived under Israeli occupation. )
Mitchell wrote: “Even under Arafat, the crushing disappointment in the Oslo Peace Process and the devastating Israeli response to the second Intifada, which began in 2000, had severely eroded Palestinians’ confidence in the Palestinian Authority. Rampant corruption and human rights abuses against Palestinians had alienated many of the people, and their turn toward Hamas as an alternative was already evident in municipal elections where Hamas was succeeding in gaining quite a lot of local control. While only a decided minority of Palestinians actually supported Hamas’ religious or political ideologies, the disgust with Fatah’s ineptitude and corruption, now exacerbated by the absence of the leadership of Arafat, caused them to vote for the available alternative. This was true in the West Bank, but much more so in Gaza.”
(According to the poll you linked to, 37% claimed to support Hamas for religious reasons. “In the estimate of 37% of the respondents, Hamas won the January parliamentary elections because voters wanted first and foremost an Islamist authority that implements the Sharia code.” This is not an insubstantial number. Regardless of the reasons Palestinians overwhelmingly support Hamas, like the Germans, Palestinians voted themselves a ruthless, fascist, Nazi-like party. Like the Germans in the nineteen thirties and early forties, what does this say about the nature of the Palestinian people themselves. It is said, we get the government that we deserve. I believe there is an element of truth to the saying.)
Mitchell: “Gaza has long been an impoverished area; it was occupied by Egypt from 1949-1967 and fared little better then than it has since Israel captured the area in 1967. This makes it a fertile ground for radical groups and extremist ideologies, much more than the West Bank. By mid-2004, when Ariel Sharon announced his decision to withdraw the Israeli settlements and occupying armies from the territory of Gaza, it was clear that Hamas had a strong foothold in Gaza and that they were quite likely more influential than the Fatah-led Palestinian Authority.”
(Let’s look at some statistics: “During the 1970’s, the West Bank and Gaza constituted the fourth fastest-growing economy in the world — ahead of Singapore, Hong Kong, and Korea, and substantially ahead of Israel itself. Although GNP per capita grew somewhat more slowly, the rate was still high by international standards, with per-capita GNP expanding tenfold between 1968 and 1991 from $165 to $1,715 (compared with Jordan’s $1,050, Egypt’s $600, Turkey’s $1,630, and Tunisia’s $1,440). By 1999, Palestinian per-capita income was nearly double Syria’s, more than four times Yemen’s, and 10 percent higher than Jordan’s (one of the better off Arab states). Only the oil-rich Gulf states and Lebanon were more affluent.
“Under Israeli rule, the Palestinians also made vast progress in social welfare. Perhaps most significantly, mortality rates in the West Bank and Gaza fell by more than two-thirds between 1970 and 1990, while life expectancy rose from 48 years in 1967 to 72 in 2000 (compared with an average of 68 years for all the countries of the Middle East and North Africa). Israeli medical programs reduced the infant-mortality rate of 60 per 1,000 live births in 1968 to 15 per 1,000 in 2000 (in Iraq the rate is 64, in Egypt 40, in Jordan 23, in Syria 22). And under a systematic program of inoculation, childhood diseases like polio, whooping cough, tetanus, and measles were eradicated.
“No less remarkable were advances in the Palestinians’ standard of living. By 1986, 92.8 percent of the population in the West Bank and Gaza had electricity around the clock, as compared to 20.5 percent in 1967; 85 percent had running water in dwellings, as compared to 16 percent in 1967; 83.5 percent had electric or gas ranges for cooking, as compared to 4 percent in 1967; and so on for refrigerators, televisions, and cars.)
Mitchell: “Sharon surely knew this, and, while some think that he ignored this fact, it seems far more likely that it was part of his calculations to split the Palestinians politically, as they were already split geographically. The rise of Hamas in Gaza was entirely predictable, even clear, at that early date. Equally predictable was the fact that the PA was going to have a very difficult time establishing any kind of control over Gaza.”
(Did “Jewish Voice for Peace” predict this? Can we go back to the archives and read articles predicting this outcome in Gaza? I think part of the Sharon’s “calculation” was for Israel to retain as many settlements in the West Bank as possible. It was Mr. Bush, after having been prodded by the Saudis, who began this push for a Palestinian [terror] state in the Holy Land. Were it not for White House pressure and Republican party pressure, I doubt Sharon would have done this to these fine Jews. Gaza would not be the terrorist-infested, wasp nest of a city that it has become.
Remember, Bush cobbled together his quartet (the US, Russia, the UN and the European Union) and his roadmap. Sharon hoped that by removing all the settlements from Gaza and a few settlements from northern Samaria, this might alleviate Bush Administration pressure to remove contiguous and large settlement blocks from the West Bank. If there were any calculous, this was it. Sharon did get a letter from Bush expressing the opinion that it might be unreasonable to remove some of the larger settlement blocks in the West Bank, especially some of those larger communities such as Ma’ale Adumim, a city located east of Jerusalem.)
Mitchell: “This was greatly exacerbated by Israel’s withdrawing unilaterally, rather than through an arrangement with the Palestinian Authority. Not only did this leave the PA unable to coordinate and arrange matters for taking over, it more importantly humiliated them and finished the job of undermining their credibility in Gaza.
(Unilateral was a mistake, but remember, there was no one to negotiate with. Abas is weak and ineffective. He cannot control his own terrorists, much less Hamas. Remember, Abbas himself is a terrorist. He was responsible for financing the Munich massacre in Germany http://www.israellawcenter.org/articlenav.php?id=35 Mahmoud Abbas did his doctoral thesis on Holocaust denial. Abbas is a jihadist and a terrorist. He was Yasir Arafat’s right hand man.)
Mitchell: “The withdrawal of the settlements and soldiers was seen as an end to Israel’s occupation of Gaza, and in one sense, it was. But in most meaningful ways, Israel remained in control of Gaza. Gaza is completely surrounded by a wall, with only three land crossings in and out of the region. Two of those lead into Israel and one into Egypt. None of them provide enough traffic in and out of the Strip to allow for any kind of trade to flourish. Israel also controls the shoreline and the airspace. In essence, Gaza is completely isolated from the rest of the world. For an area as bereft of resources as Gaza is, this means no economic activity can develop, leading to massive unemployment, widespread malnutrition and hunger and short supplies of electricity, medical supplies, water and other basic necessities.
In the wake of the withdrawal, some Gazans, while perhaps expressing understandable rage, did themselves no favors by destroying synagogues that Israel had left standing in the Strip (despite the requests of the PA that Israel remove them precisely to avoid this) and looting and destroying greenhouses that international Jewish donors had bought and donated to the PA. These actions were harmful to Palestinian interests and to Palestinians’ image in the world’s eyes. They were seized upon by those who wished to dehumanize the Palestinians, and this “proof” of Palestinians’ alleged “inability to govern themselves” has fueled an ongoing propaganda campaign.”
(Gaza would be a flourishing city were it not for the fact that Palestinians returned Israel’s goodwill gesture with kidnapping, rockets, terrorism and violence. This is what we can expect from any Israeli withdrawal. As was the case with Olso — Arafat met Israel goodwill with murderous violence — we saw the very same thing here in Gaza. Palestinians do not want to live in peace with Israel. They want to annihilate Israel, regardless of Israel’s borders.)
Mitchell: “In January 2006, Palestinian elections were held, over the mild objections of some parts of the Israeli government and the much more strenuous objections of Mahmoud Abbas and Fatah. The Bush Administration pushed hard for these elections, despite the predictions of virtually every Middle East expert across the political spectrum that it would produce major gains for Hamas. …..
In June 2006, a group of Palestinians infiltrated an Israeli army post inside Israel and kidnapped or captured (depending on your point of view) an Israeli soldier.”
(Why the qualifier “or?” What point of view mitigates the fact that Palestinian terrorists crossed the Gaza border into Israeli territory, murdered and kidnapped an Israeli soldier? Israel withdrew entirely from Gaza. No military presence. What could possibly justify murder and kidnapping?)
Mitchell: “And there are new concerns, ones which Israel had better take very seriously. For quite some time now, we have heard from Mahmoud Abbas as well as from Hamas leaders of attempts by al-Qaeda and similar groups to gain a foothold within the Palestinian Territories. Thus far, these have been rebuffed, and nothing in the current developments will make either Fatah or Hamas more receptive to such groups. But the general chaos in Gaza may well make it much more difficult for the Palestinians to keep these groups out, and if Hamas is proven to be a failure, the radical elements in Palestinian society are going to turn not to more moderate elements, but to still more radical ones, giving these groups a foothold. This would be exceedingly dangerous for Israelis. Whatever one thinks of Hamas or Fatah, they are not the same at all as al-Qaeda, simplistic Western propaganda notwithstanding. The last thing any Israeli civilian wants is to see al-Qaeda operating on their doorstep.”
(What is the difference between Hamas and al Qaeda? These are both devout Islamic-jihadist organizations, religiously based on the strict interpretation of Sharia law; this includes the treatment of women as inferior and property, multiple wives, cutting off hands for theft, beating disobedient wives, death penalty for conversion, that is apostasy from Islam, beheadings of homosexuals, etc. Fatah is a terror group.)
June 24th, 2007 at 9:08 am
John #20 worte: “Notice they give no documentation, Steve. Where did they get the quote from? I have found the quote repeated numerous times on the web but never with a reference to the original source. You may have a totally fabricated quotation, Steve. There are lots of compeletely made-up false tales about the Mufti - on the web, simply because there is an anti-Muslim audience ready and willing to lap them up and hardly anyone who is interested in fact-checking because the man was a jerk to begin with. Just bear in mind you may be quoting from a source as reliable as the National Enquirer.”>>>
John, what sources do you trust? Do you trust Wikipedia or is Wikipedia also as reliable as the National Enquirer in you mind?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni#The_Holocaust
The Holocaust
“The Mufti’s knowledge about the Holocaust while living in Nazi Germany has been debated with the Mufti himself denying any such knowledge after the war. Testimony presented at the Nuremberg trials, however, accused the Mufti of not only having knowledge about the holocaust but of also actively encouraging the initiation of extermination programs against European Jews. Adolf Eichmann’s deputy Dieter Wisliceny testified during his war crimes trial in 1946 that … “The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan… He was one of Eichmann’s best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chambers of Auschwitz.”
When the Red Cross offered to mediate with Adolf Eichmann in a trade prisoner-of-war exchange involving the freeing of German citizens in exchange for 5,000 Jewish children being sent from Poland to the Theresienstadt concentration camp, Husseini directly intervened with Himmler and the exchange was cancelled.[7]…..
June 24th, 2007 at 9:38 am
John:
If you are sleepy, then take a nappy. However your lack of alertness in conspicious.
I read part of the linked materials but it is not relivant. It could be 100,000 pages and be no more relivant.
The General Assembly is a ceremonial body, lacking the athority to impose its will on unwilling third parties. Even Mitchell has acknoledged this point. What you fail to acknoledge is that a ceremonial body may not charter a court, that adjudicates decisions of the true lawmaking tribunal. Supposing you were right, then, there would be no Security Counsel. Anything it did which the (lower) General Assembly objected to, would simply be overturned in the court which the lower entity itself chartered. And that is exactly where we are headed as a world. It is hardly a secret that leftist organisations have long lobbied to abolish the Security Counsel or at least change its composition and powers. Failing that, they have successfully created this phantom court, to over-rule the Security Counsel. Roosevelt tried to overwhelm the U.S. Supreme Court by adding extra justices, which of course, he appointed. There is no mystery here. Flap your mouth all you like. The I.C.J has no jurisdiction to adjudicate Security Counsel decisions. Since U.N. 242 is intergral to the adjudication of the fense and other issues, the corut is trying to prove who the thief is before proving who the owner is. They have no authority to adjudicate who the owner is and therefore lack jurisdiction as to who the thief is. Some day this larcenous court may take your rights away and give them to some guy in Batswana.
June 24th, 2007 at 9:53 am
John, here’s an article you will like:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/7216
June 24th, 2007 at 10:01 am
Isador, I am no big fan of so-called international law. Let’s face it, most of these nations that made and continue to make this “law” either actively participated in Hitler’s genocide against the Jews or like the U.S. and much of western Europe, absolutely shut their eyes to the genocide. See David Wyman’s classic, “Abandonment of the Jews.”
Many of these nations today pass one-sided resolutions in the General Assembly condemning Israel for acts of self-defense. Why should I trust these faithless, Jew-hating nations to be impartial?
At any rate, I found this interesting about the legally binding nature of Security Council Resoltions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council#Resolutions
Resolutions
The legally binding nature of Security Council Resolutions has been the subject of some controversy. It is generally agreed that resolutions are legally binding if they are made under Chapter VII (Action with Respect to Threats to the Peace, Breaches of the Peace, and Acts of Aggression) of the Charter. The Council is also empowered to make resolutions under Chapter VI (Pacific Settlement of Disputes); most authorities do not consider these to be legally binding. The International Court of Justice suggested in the Namibia case that resolutions other than those made under Chapter VI can also be binding,[7] a view that some Member States have questioned. Others have asserted that Chapter VI resolutions are non-binding, but may contain binding sections.[8] It is beyond doubt however that those resolutions made outside these two Chapters dealing with the internal governance of the organization (such as the admission of new Member States) are legally binding, where the Charter gives the Security Council power to make them.
June 24th, 2007 at 11:30 am
The I.C.J has no jurisdiction to adjudicate Security Counsel decisions.
Wrong, again. What can I say. 242 is a Security Council Resolution. The UN Charter is obviously the document which charters the Security Council, the General Assembly, The International Court of Justice. The International Committee of the Red Cross is the Protecting Power chartered by the Geneva Conventions. Israel is the problem; not the ICJ (”this phantom court”) or the ICRC. When does Israel begin to honor the oaths it swore to in signing the Geneva Conventions and the UN Charter??? It will take all the he-goats in Israel to atone for all the times Israel has violated those oaths, I guarantee you.
Let’s get back to the thread, shall we?
June 24th, 2007 at 11:36 am
John, here’s an article you will like
Quote therefrom:
“I am not advocating an outright rejection of Christian support for Israel. But if we’re going to open our Zionist hearts to them, we better also open our Jewish eyes - and watch our Jewish backs -”
I agree. The rapturists (I call them the velocirapturists) are planning on Jesus killing all the Jews when he returns. They are not your friends.
June 24th, 2007 at 11:39 am
John, what sources do you trust? Do you trust Wikipedia or is Wikipedia also as reliable as the National Enquirer in you mind?
As Isidor has shown, Wikipedia has to be used with caution. Can be LESS reliable than National Enquirer. Anyone can edit it online. I quoted from it once and Isidore scrambled around to it and changed what it said!!!! Caution. Caution. Caution. Note the disclaimers at the top of every page.
June 24th, 2007 at 11:43 am
See Wiki gives the source of the quote about Himmler as the same Nuremberg testimony as your previous quote. But note that their bibliography provides no reference to that testimony, no place where that testimony can be checked. Very dubious. The way you document a quote is to footnote it showing the source and page number, and then in your bibliography you list the publication data or web link for the source itself (Title, Author, Publisher, Date).
June 24th, 2007 at 11:54 am
John, both of these authors / historians are defenders of Egenio Pacelli, ‘Hitler’s Pope’. You dismiss their research?
http://www.crisismagazine.com/december2005/rychlak.htm
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19064
June 24th, 2007 at 12:02 pm
Here are the Nuremberg Trial Proceedings at the point where they record the testimony of Dieter Wisliceny from beginning to end. Steve, see if you can find the words in his testimony that you quoted? Anything here about the Mufti at all? Anything here about al-Husseini?
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/01-03-46.htm
Maybe I missed it. Show me if you can find it. Barring that, Steve, I think we have to conclude that this oft-repeated quotation is a complete hoax, a malicious urban myth. a fabrication repeated countless times without checking sources in order to smear the Arabs as Nazis-and-worse.
Now my next question is going to be who started it? What is the earliest source for this lie? Who made up this story and why did they make it up? It was clearly by someone who had a purpose but no scruples.
Did I overlook the quotation? If you search the Nuremberg Trials archives at Yale, you will find only two references to the Mufti al-Husseini, none by Wisliceny.
June 24th, 2007 at 12:09 pm
You dismiss their research?
“but Wisliceny read it over at Nuremberg and verified its substance.”
No footnotes. No bibliography. No documentation.
But fortunately, I have provided a link to the Nuremberg transcripts. So you can check his testimony for yourself and see if you can find it Steve. Let me know if you find anything. Otherwise give quit repeating this crap.
Husseini’s dead, Steve, it’s time to let him go.
I realize he’s the lynch-pin in your claim that the Arabs are Nazis, were probably Nazis before the Nazis themselves were even Nazis, and worse than Nazis too, but Husseini was a nobody and a nothing. Just a loser; not a war criminal.
Let’s get back to the thread, shall we?
June 24th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
John, what sources do you trust?
The original documents.
June 24th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
Every time I read “Wisliceny” it makes me think of “weasely Cheney” - read about our most secretive VP ever in the WPost today, “The Angler.” Truly a whackjob. Either impeach him or repeal the impeachment clause in the Constitution.
OK. Now back to the thread.
Someone referenced the kidnapping or abduction of the IDF soldiers and questioned the “or” there. The reason is that these were uniformed soliders on-duty. It was a military action; not a criminal act. They snatched a couple of IDF soldiers for a prisoner exchange. Olmert didn’t care about the prisoners. He wanted to use the opportunity to look like a big shot. So he started pounding Lebanon. Hezbollah bloodied his nose for it. Read the Winograd Report if you don’t think so. So poor Shalit sits and waits.
June 24th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
John, what sources do you trust?
The original documents. >>>>
No John, that is not true. You do not trust original documents. Original documents say God gave all the land of Israel to the Jews. If you trusted original documents, you would be on my side. Instead you are on my enemy’s side who have no original documents to justify their spurious claims. So no, you do not trust original documents or sources.
Once more John. What sources do you trust?
June 24th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
The originals, Steve, the originals. No, the original documents (earliest complete copy btw dates to 1000 CE) say God gave the land to the sons of Abraham, i.e. to Ishmael and Isaac. Never does it say to the Jews exclusively. For the love of heaven stop with the Bible-baiting.
Here is the source of the quote from Dieter Wisicleny. In the form usually quoted it is highly garbled. It is not from the Nuremberg Trials. It is from the Trial of Adolph Eichmann. It is from a witness named Dr. Steiner in regard to an affadavit produced by Wisicleny. It differs from the statement you quoted. Wisliceny also made corrections to it. This is from the Eichmann transcript:
“State Attorney Bach: This is our document No. 281. Mr. Steiner first tells us that Wisliceny described his talks with Eichmann, why Palestine cannot be considered as the destination for emigration:
“When I asked him why, he laughed and asked whether I had never heard of the Grand Mufti Husseini. He explained that the Mufti has very close contact and cooperation with Eichmann, and therefore Germany cannot agree to Palestine being the final destination, as this would be a blow to Germany’s prestige in the Mufti’s eyes.”
Then he goes on: “At this further conversation Wisliceny gave me more details about the cooperation between Eichmann and the Mufti. The Mufti is a sworn enemy of the Jews and has always fought for the idea of annihilating the Jews. He sticks to this idea always, also in his talks with Eichmann” - and here we have one of the points about which Wisliceny has reservations - “who, as you know, is a German who was born in Palestine. The Mufti is one of the originators of the systematic destruction of European Jewry by the Germans, and he has become a permanent colleague, partner and adviser to Eichmann and Himmler in the implementation of this programme.”
Here Wisliceny adds: “I have read these descriptions and find them correct, except for this, that Eichmann was born in Palestine, and that the Mufti was a permanent partner of Himmler’s; this is not what I said.”
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eichmann-adolf/transcripts/Sessions/Session-050-07.html
So this is what Steiner said that Wisliceny said that Eichmann said. It says he had “close contact” and “cooperation” with Eichmann. It says he was not a “permanent partner” with Himmler. It says nothing about any visit to a gas chamber. It says the Mufti wanted to kill all the Jews. If the Mufti advised Eichmann on “the implementation of this programme” no evidence has proved conclusively what that advice was, or whether the Mufti even realized the extent of “the implementation.” He hated Jews. He wished them all dead. Most Holocaust scholars, including Raul Hilberg, consider it highly unlikely the Mufti had any role in the Holocaust. Hilberg devotes one sentence to Husseini in his three-volume masterwork, the definitive work on the Holocaust, “The Destruction of European Jewry.” Husseini sympathized with the Holocaust. He kissed up to the Nazis and cooperated with them from his neck of the woods, probably supplying them with information. He was a jerk. He was a Nazi collaborator-wannabe.
Now who picked this up from the Eichmann trial and doctored it up and made it look like the actual testimony of Dieter Wisliceny at Nuremberg? Still looking, but Sarah Honig a right-wing reporter for the Jerusalem Post wrote some stories about the Mufti in which this “testimony” was alluded to, claiming documentation from Nuremberg. Some of her quotes have proved controversial and have been challenged. I don’t know if she was the culprit or not.
June 24th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
“The simple fact is that there can never be any progress between Israel and the Palestinians if a big chunk of the Palestinian community, the Islamists, are excluded from the process. Not only will many other Palestinians support their right to be heard, but groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad can easily derail any peace process with attacks on Israelis, as they have so often done in the past. They need to be engaged so they will have incentive to refrain from such actions. The alternative is not just failure, it is a brand of radicalism that will be much worse.”
http://blog.mideastanalysis.org/?p=57
June 24th, 2007 at 4:40 pm
Steve, the ben Asher MS of the Masoretic Text of the TNK dates to about 900 CE, 10th century.
Here are the differences between the version of the Wisliceny quote cited by Steve and the original version from the Eichmann trial:
1. Not from the Nuremberg Trial.
2. Third hand report, i.e., double hearsay.
3. Says Mufti “one of the originators” not “one of the initiators”
4. Says “fought for the idea of the annihilating the Jews.”
5. Says “destruction” not “extermination.”
6. Says “permanent colleague, partner” not “collaborator.”
7. Does not say “one of Eichmann’s best friends.”
8. Does not say “constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination methods.”
9. Does not say “accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chamber of Auschwitz.”
The Mufti died in 1974. If the judges at the Eichmann trial had determined that he had actually played a role in the Final Solution comparable to Eichmann or Himmler, or suspected that, the Israelis would have arrested or abducted him and brought him to Israel for trial. In fact, the judges commented on the Mufti in the final judgement on Eichmann:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eichmann-adolf/transcripts/Judgment/Judgment-050.html
156. This is the place to add a few words about the Accused’s personal contact with the Mufti, Hajj Amin al- Husseini.
It has been proved to us that the Mufti, too, aimed at the implementation of the Final Solution, viz., the extermination of European Jewry, and there is no doubt that, had Hitler succeeded in conquering Palestine, the Jewish population of Palestine as well would have been subject to total extermination, with the support of the Mufti.
Memoranda sent by the Mufti to the German Foreign Ministry, Ribbentrop (T/1260, T/1261), and to the satellite governments of Romania and Bulgaria (T/1263, T/1264), have been submitted to us, containing the insistent demand that all Jewish immigration into Palestine be prevented.
In the memorandum to the Bulgarian Foreign Minister, dated 6 May 1943 (T/1263, p. 3), it says:
“I take the liberty of drawing your attention to the fact that it would be indeed appropriate and advantageous if the Jews were to be prevented from emigrating from your country, and if they were sent to a place where they would be placed under strict control, as for example Poland.”
It is unnecessary to make any comment upon the phrase “strict control,” when the subject under reference is Polish Jewry in the year 1943.
In his notes, exhibit T/89, dated 26 July 1946, Wisliceny quotes the Accused as saying that the Mufti visited his office in Berlin at the end of 1941 or the beginning of 1942. The Accused gave him an account of the Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe, and the Mufti was duly impressed. The Mufti told the Accused that Himmler had agreed to his request that a member of the Accused’s Section should come to Jerusalem to serve as personal adviser to him (the Mufti) upon the latter’s return to Jerusalem after the victory of the Axis Powers. The Accused asked Wisliceny if he would like to take this task upon himself, and he, Wisliceny, declined to consider the suggestion.
In his Statement, the Accused admitted that he had met the Mufti, though not in his office, but on the occasion of a more widely attended gathering, and continues (p. 564):
“But it is correct that those who accompanied the Grand Mufti visited me, and certainly there was some discussion then, though I cannot remember that I ever had a longer conversation with these Iraqi majors beyond general greetings and receiving them and handing them over to the members of my staff.”
Shortly afterwards (pp. 568-569), he speaks of a visit paid to his office by a nephew (or other close relative) of the Mufti’s.
In the light of this partial admission by the Accused, we accept as correct Wisliceny’s statement about this conversation between the Mufti and the Accused. In our view it is not important whether this conversation took place in the Accused’s office or elsewhere.
On the other hand, we cannot determine decisive findings with regard to the Accused on the basis of the notes appearing in the Mufti’s diary which were submitted to us.”
In summary:
1. The judges have no doubt that the Mufti WOULD HAVE assisted in including Palestinian Jews in the Holocaust IF the Axis Powers had won the war.
2. But they were interested in Eichmann (”the Accused”) and the Mufti’s diary offered nothing they could use against Eichmann. Obviously, if he had really collaborated on the implementation of the Holocaust, that would have been reflected somehow in the diary.
Nazi-sympathizer. Jerk. Loser. Not a war criminal, according to the panel of Israeli judges at the Eichmann trial.
šŽ
June 24th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
“The simple fact is that there can never be any progress between Israel and the Palestinians if a big chunk of the Palestinian community, the Islamists, are excluded from the process.”
John,
Do you do business with, place confidence and trust in criminals and murderers in your own private and / or
business life? Have you ever been swindled by a low-life criminal? Ever been cheated and duped by someone you thought was genuine?
Do you put your trust in the word of men of ill-repute? Is this the manner in which you have conducted your life?
June 24th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
John, do you have any children?
June 24th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Steve, I see where you are going with those questions. But I think Hamas is just going to have to trust the Israelis despite their past performance, murder, deceit, war crimes, breaking their word, lies, etc.
Children? Now why do I sense an Arabs-are-subhuman-fiends allegation coming next?
June 24th, 2007 at 7:45 pm
John:
First, what makes you the ceremonial keeper of the “thread”. If you don’t like where its going, don’t participate in the conversation.
Obviously, if the U.N. General Assembly could have either disbanded, disempowered or reconfigured the Security Counsel (by any means at its disposal), it surely would have done so already. But it hasn’t because it cannot.
The general Assembly (at best) can only be considered a congress. The Security Counsel is the Executive branch, including sole and exclusive military control. As said, its decisions are not subject to the interpretation of the congressional branch or any third-party entity charted by the congressional branch. If it did, the Security Counsel would have abrocated its authority because literally anything it did could be reconfigured, modified, re-interpreted or flat-out voided by the tribunal who is solely charted by the lower (congressional) entity.
The very simple issue of whether 242 mandated a return to pre-1967 borders is ingergral to most every other question, now being disputed. Most of these other questions, such as the scope of any alleged “occupation” can not be settled before settling 242, which as I said, can not be the authority of the I.C.J.
As said on an earlier subject: If that was the intent of the Security Counsel, it would have only taken 5 very clear and simple words to say so:
Israel(1) withdraws(2) to(3) pre-1967(4) borders(5). Obviously, the lack of these words or any others which are unambigious, means that one side (or another) was being mislead. Possibly both sides. This is, in itself sad. However, the question of which side was being shined-on in favor of a temporal peace can not be adjudicated by a tribunal–not expressly chartered by the Security Counsel. Literally every other organisation in the world can sign on to the I.C.J., including Boy Scouts, American Cancer Society and Mothers Against Drunk Driving. However, without a Security Counsel permit, their decisions regarding Security Counsel resolutions are like yellow signs on the highway.
You are very smart John. Which is what is so scary–that you actually believe 1/2 of what you write.
June 24th, 2007 at 8:57 pm
John, you did not answer my questions. Let me try one more time. Do you do business with, place confidence and trust in criminals and murderers in your own private and / or business life? Have you ever been swindled by a low-life criminal? Ever been cheated and duped by someone you thought was genuine?
Do you put your trust in the word of men of ill-repute? Is this the manner in which you have conducted your life?
June 24th, 2007 at 9:02 pm
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0625/p07s02-wome.html?page=1
Uncertainty for Hamas in West Bank
Politicians affiliated with the group say they fear more Palestinian factional violence.
By Ilene R. Prusher | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
Page 1 of 3
Nablus, West Bank - Khouloud el-Masri insists her al-Juthur cultural center was nothing more than a place for teaching women.
But gunmen loyal to Fatah dismissed it as a cover for Hamas indoctrination. They set it on fire at the height of the fighting in Gaza two weeks ago between the Palestinian factions. The center was destroyed and the blaze nearly sent the building where Mrs. Masri lives with her husband and five children up in smoke.
Now, Masri, an elected councilmember and one of the most prominent female faces of Hamas’s political wing in the West Bank, is living on the run. She sleeps in a different house every night, taking a few of the kids with her, while her husband takes the remainder elsewhere…..
Nasser Juma, a Fatah member of the Palestinian Legislative Council, says he doesn’t condone everything that the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades has done because it amounts to vigilante violence. All such groups, he says, are going to have to be integrated into the PA security forces. But what’s happened to Hamas people and institutions in Nablus is child’s play, he suggests, when compared with Gaza.
“Hamas is killing everybody, killing children, and they’ve destroyed the Palestinian dream. Hamas in the West Bank has to be eliminated,” says Mr. Juma in an interview in his office in the commercial center of Nablus. “I agree with what the council members were told: they should not come to work. I want to suggest to Khouloud el-Masri that she go live in Gaza for even one week. I don’t want them bringing the situation of Gaza to the West Bank.”
June 24th, 2007 at 9:07 pm
the tribunal who is solely charted by the lower (congressional) entity.
The case you are trying to make rests on this false premise, namely that the ICJ was solely chartered by the GC. That is simply not the case. The Court is the official judicial organ of the UN and was sanctioned within Article 93 ff. of the UN Charter itself, as I said. The judges of the court are selected by both the GC and the SC. Article 93 makes all UN members, whether in the GC or SC, subject to the Court’s rulings. In the event a nation refuses to comply, the matter goes to the SC. If the non-complying nation is a member of the SC, this is where a conflict may arise between ICJ and SC as a practical matter rather than jurisdictional matter, as the member may exercise its veto over the issue. Thus, both the GC and the SC chartered the ICJ. The ICJ has jurisdiction to rule on 242, which it did. Israel is in non-compliance. Be that as it may, the rulings of the Court vis-a-vis the wall, the settlements, the occupation, the impediment to rights of the Palestinian people for self-determination also engage other member nations:
159. Given the character and the importance of the rights and obligations involved, the
Court is of the view that all States are under an obligation not to recognize the illegal
situation resulting from the construction of the wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory,
including in and around East Jerusalem. They are also under an obligation not to render aid
or assistance in maintaining the situation created by such construction. It is also for all
States, while respecting the United Nations Charter and international law, to see to it that any impediment, resulting from the construction of the wall, to the exercise by the Palestinian people of its right to self-determination is brought to an end. In addition, all the States parties to the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of 12 August 1949 are under an obligation, while respecting the United Nations Charter and international law, to ensure compliance by Israel with international humanitarian law as embodied in that Convention.”
http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Documents/icj20040709.pdf
,
June 24th, 2007 at 9:08 pm
John, you did not answer my questions.
I don’t intend to. Get to your point.
June 24th, 2007 at 9:49 pm
You would never do business with these people but you are suggesting we do business with murderers.
June 24th, 2007 at 10:51 pm
you are suggesting we do business with murderers.
Steve, Israel’s strategy for forty years has been to avoid negotiations until the de facto annexation-by-settlements is complete. Even if the Palestinians were saints, the Israelis would not negotiate with them. They will do anything to keep from negotiating with anyone. Because they enjoy terrorist attacks? No, of course not. Because their program of annexing the Occupied Territories by establishing “facts on the ground” through settlements is not complete. They are waiting until there will be so many settlements and the Palestinians are so isolated from one another by the wall that reversing the situation will be a practical impossibility. Once the settlement-annexation program is complete, they will “negotiate” with the Devil himself, because - they think - it won’t matter then. Don’t waste your breath trying to convince me why my reason for negotiating is wrong. From the Israeli perspective, it’s not really about WHO to negotiate with; it’s WHEN to negotiate. Stall, stall, stall. And keep stalling. Whatever you do, don’t negotiate.
“We won’t negotiate with terrorists!”
“We have no partner for peace!”
BS.
June 25th, 2007 at 3:17 am
John:
The key to understanding the relationship between the tribunals rests on one sentense:
“In the event a nation refuses to comply, the matter goes to the SC.”
Therefore, as a practical matter, the ICJ serves as an advisory or opinion role to the S.C., not the other way around.
The United Nations was designed to have an equal standing between countries of different sizes and types, e.g. large democracies such as India and tiny dictatorships such as Cote Ivore are treated equally and each has one vote. To compensate for this obviously dangerous situation, the Security Counsel was established to be the true governing body with the General Assembly maintaining a cerimonial role. I have not read through this material and have extremely little time (it is now 3:30 -am and this is when I get to do non essential work). However, I would be very surprized if the legal foundation for the I.C.J. is exactly as you describe. But lets assume that in a rare example, your liberty with reality is not massaging the facts at all.
The Security Counsel was set up wherein any permanant member has the authority to veto any action, solely on their own signature. It may sound a bit inequitable but the alternative is to have an executive committee for third-world dictators running the legal affairs of our world. I choose the former.
At any rate, the I.C.J. can rule as it likes. Suppose it ruled that no more animals can be eaten by anyone. It turns out that I am a longstanding strict vegetarian but I use this example for objectivity since most people are not. Countries failing to comply would be referred to the Security Counsel. It is still the Security Counsel which decides the legality and practality of the ruling because it controls the “police” to enforce the I.C.J. ruling.
Bottom line: All Israel needs to remain status-quo is one S.C. permanant member willing to veto adverse legislation or enforcement. It need NOT be the USA. It could as easily be France, or China. That is the system.
The way you assert, the entire system is upset because the I.C.J. gets to put words in the mouth of the entire Security Counsel. In the case of Israel, it gets to do so retroactively, almost 40 years later.
Example:
S.C. passes a bill that says that Iran must stop all nuclear activities. Am I to understand that you have asserted that the I.C.J. gets to interpret such to its liking? Suppose the I.C.J. rules that the effective meaning is that the USA, not Iran must stop all nuclear activities? Such a ruling would not have binding authority on the Security Counsel and therefore not over Iran or the USA either.
It would merely be a legal opinion, that the S.C. could either accept or reject.
Any action or policy which would have the effect of upsetting the pro-active power of the Security Counsel veto, would dramatically alter the balance of power in the entire world. As siad earlier, it would render the Security Counsel sobordinate to the I.C.J. I know that is what you desperately desire. The question is not what you desire or for that matter, not what billions of private citizens around the world might desire, but what the official U.N. power structure decides. Which means that any veto in the security counsel can scuttle any pro-active action of the entire U.N. This point has not changed through your description of the relationship between the parties. Therefore, since the decisions of the I.C.J. are NOT binding on the actual lawmaking body (the S.C.), the judges on the I.C.J. serve merely as advisors to the S.C. No different then Paula Abdul on American Idol. The votes are ultimately tabulated based on the per-se results of a call in poling.
Now, onto (back to) equity:
National borders should not be subject to a never-ending process of defining them. If it were so, any country that could get enough U.N. votes could expand its borders (sort of like “eminant domain”).
Israels borders were first defined between 1918 and 1924, in the same international treaties which created all these other Mid East countries. The world has been trying to re-define these borders at its whim, steadily ever since. That does not seem to bother you at all.
U.N.S.C. 242 was widly known to provide for a negotiated border settlement between the parties. Its language is easily interpreted to have several distinctly diffrent meanings and that is the ONLY way it escaped a veto in the first place. The world at large wishes to see the Arabs appeased. Its really not that personal toward Jews. The Israelis merely have the profound misfortune of being on the front line. My point in this regard in further evidenced by the Kurdish situation, which is a close parallel to the Israeli one. The Kurds were granted legal automomy after WW1, during the same round of treaties. Yet, they have been forced into a confederation with their traditional oppressors. This too for the sake of appeasement and to protect the power structure, wherein the Arabs control most of the oil.
So, say whatever you like. Both the Jews and the Kurds have gotten hosed and continue to do so, seemingly on an open-ended basis and for the same exact reason.
You should only never know the booby-trap that life is when one is Jewish.
June 25th, 2007 at 3:25 am
Below is a re-print from another blog:
I think it has meaning herein:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
When I was young I would love to immerse myself in ideas, the grander the better, full of hope and solutions, bringing with them the seductive power of theory and projection, uncluttered by the mundanity of everyday pain and repetition.
Now I love just the Truth, the hard raw unassailable Truth, ignored by most and unattractive to the rest. That which conflicts with habitual thinking and comfortable prejudice is always inconvenient. Why be an outsider if one can follow the herd, bolster one’s communal identity and hard-earned security blanket?
But the Truth is that pure clear water that easily fogs up with prejudice, that clogs up with preconceptions. It’s that clarity that sometimes comes with age, when the ego recedes and time is short. Youth has courage, it has spit and polish, but age can grow wisdom, part the clouds like Moses and see the Promised Land, a land not of perfection, but merely Truth.
When God created Adam and Eve He gave choice with vision, vision to see the self and the world and the choice to understand the difference.
Prejudice is feeling the self and presuming the vision. Abraham, the world’s first Renaissance man, understood Truth to be greater than any ego, any emotion, any person and he thereupon divined the divine. He understood the purity of consciousness, the value of Truth and set the path that inevitably led to the Ten Commandments, that ambivalent love affair of an irascible tribe of wanderers with a punitive and caring God who never let His children forget both the existence and the pain of Truth.
The people of the Book, the texts brimming with lessons in the convoluted experience of personal Truth, have been burnt for millennia in the fires of untruth, the brimstone of hate and prejudice. Twelve million remain, a thorn in the side of every fundamentalist, every fascist, every tyrant. These 12 million are but one quarter of one percent of this varied and ever-changing world, yet they adhere to the Truth as a clam to its shell, unattractive to those peoples around, an irritating historical relic and an inconvenient Truth if there ever was one.
Hitler understood he could irrevocably persuade the German people to his Nazi Jihad - as for the rest they would merely cower or he would overwhelm them: Except for the people of the Book, those ancient acolytes who have no idols, no competing loyalties and no ultimate fantasies before God. Hitler understood he would never sway this ancient people, never bribe them all, never remove their veil of Truth and so he arrived at his Final Solution - the crossroads to his intended domination of the world.
Whether one be religious or secular, dark-skinned or light-skinned, Truth is the ultimate civilization, the ultimate mark of humanity, that essential aberration that brings always a minority closer to the divine, to our salvation and whatever preceded us all.
Originally Posted June 22, 2007 - 02:18:15 PM by Mr. Leslie Sacks
June 25th, 2007 at 3:29 am
Also see:
http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=34919
Selected transcript from Abbas’ recent speech..
June 25th, 2007 at 5:58 am
Olmert, don’t go
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3417064,00.html
June 25th, 2007 at 7:40 am
All Israel needs to remain status-quo is one S.C. permanant member willing to veto adverse legislation or enforcement.
The patience of the United States and of the world is not unlimited, particularly when “the status quo” is threatening to engulf the region and the entire world in flames.
June 25th, 2007 at 7:56 am
http://www.zoa.org/2007/06/israeli_weapons_1.htm
Israeli Weapons Given To Abbas’ Fatah End Up In Hamas’ Possession
June 25th, 2007 at 9:51 am
“The patience of the United States and of the world is not unlimited, particularly when “the status quo” is threatening to engulf the region and the entire world in flames.”
Or, as some would assert, Israel is merely the “condum” which seperates the greater religious revolution from the rest of society.
It is not a matter of patience at all. Since when has the world has any patience with Jews? Not today and not ever.
John: I really love it when you speak for other people and I especially love it when you speak on behalf of the entire world. May I please know, would you be as confident to speak for all the planets in the galaxy? Perhaps the next galaxy?? Heck, why not the entire known universe, or, while we are at it, include the unknown universe as well.
Some nations have actually punished Israel for its aliance with the USA. It is not at all certain that given an abandonment by the USA of Israel, that one of the USA’s rivals might not step in and fill in the void. I admit that such does not look likely, but hey, it was hardly likely that Israel would survive the 1948, 1967 or 1973 wars either. To be an Israeli (or supporter of Israel) one must believe in miracles.
Once again you miss no chance to blame Israel for the world’s problems. How do you know for a fact that the next big conflict won’t be between India and Pakistan? No Jews to be found there. Or between China, Taiwan and USA (I have heard legends of a few Chinese Jews, but never met a one).
There are literally a dozen other places that could provide the “flames” you reference. The only way you would be able to know for certain that the Palestine issue is the “flash-point” would be if this is the plan. If it is the plan, why should such plan be expected to change if Israel complies with the various demands?
I don’t think you realize how clouded is your judgement.
June 25th, 2007 at 11:41 am
Since when has the world has any patience with Jews? Not today and not ever.
Speaking for all Jews and also the entire world, are you? Why not add the whole galaxy?
Is there anyone alive on the planet and not dead from the neck up who does not believe that the threat of transnational Islamist terrorism is at the top of the short list of problems facing the world today? The Isr-Pal conflict has become the symbolic issue which drives Islamist terrorism, not only in the view of the terrorists but in the view of moderate Arabs and westerners. Our Middle East policies have made the U.S. a fat target now too, witness 9-11. Israel’s perpetual security nightmare has now been cloned in the U.S. Now when you board an American airliner it’s like you are boarding El Al. The terrorists know where to address the mail and why. As I said, our patience and the patience of other fat targets in getting this conflict resolved is not unlimited. Bush said as much last week. Heads up.
June 25th, 2007 at 12:05 pm
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3417054,00.html
Trend of insulting Zionism
June 25th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
The Isr-Pal conflict has become the symbolic issue which drives Islamist terrorism, not only in the view of the terrorists but in the view of moderate Arabs and westerners. >>>>
John, what does Israel have to do with the conflict between Pakistan and India over Kashmir? What does Israel have to do with the Chechen war with Russia? What does Israel have to do with the conflicts in Sudan and Ethiopia? In the Philippines and Indonesia? In Algeria, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Indonesia, Iraq, Kirgizstan, Lebanon, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Tajikistan, Uzebekistan? How is the Arab war against the Jews responsible for all these conflicts?
June 25th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Our Middle East policies have made the U.S. a fat target now too, witness 9-11.>>>>
Bin Laden hardly mentioned Israel. It may have been an afterthought. Bin Laden’s main pre-occupation was American troops stationed in the Hijaz; US military presence in the Saudi Kingdom is an abomination and a profanity.
June 25th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Bin Laden hardly mentioned Israel.
Absolutely true. I said the Isr-Pal had become the symbolic issue driving Islamist terrorism. It is a symbol of the meddling of the West in the ME. Iraq also. Afghanistan also. The U.S. is now determined to get out of Iraq and Afghanistan as soon as feasible for the sake of our own security. No end in sight with Israel. But there has been a sea-change in the way U.S. policy-makers are looking at the Isr-Pal conflict, and that is because of concerns about U.S. security.
Strategic Reset
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2007/06/strategic_reset.html
June 25th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
Britain too, emph. added:
“In his inaugural speech as British Labor Party leader yesterday, Gordon Brown, who will take over as Prime Minister on Wednesday, said:
“In Iraq, which all of us accept has been a divisive issue for our party and our country, in Afghanistan and in the Middle East, we will meet our international obligations, we will learn lessons that need to be learned, and at all times be unyielding in support for our dedicated armed forces.
“Our foreign policy will reflect the truth that to isolate and defeat terrorist extremism now involves more than military force - it is also a struggle of ideas and ideals. An essential contribution will be a Middle East settlement upholding a two-state solution, that protects the security of Israel and the legitimate enduring desire for a Palestinian state.”
http://middleeastprogress.org/?p=755
If Israel cannot bring herself to negotiate with murderers, my guess is that before long others will do that for her. And if a reasonable two-state solution cannot be negotiated, then a one-state solution with Israelis and Palestinians living together within the same national borders and with full rights and citizenship for all with no ethnic discrimination.
June 25th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
Gordon Brown: “Our foreign policy will reflect the truth that to isolate and defeat terrorist extremism now involves more than military force - it is also a struggle of ideas and ideals. An essential contribution will be a Middle East settlement upholding a two-state solution, that protects the security of Israel and the legitimate enduring desire for a Palestinian state.”
John, this is the extreme leftist view. That a two-state (final) solution to the Jewish question is an essential contribution to solving our problem with the Muslim-Arab world. It’s poppycock.
Muslim world has issues with the west that transcend the Jewish state.
The notion that Israel is a ‘western colonialist outpost’ is also ludicrous. Jews have been pinning for Zion many centuries before Lord Balfour and Lloyd George were zygotes in their mother’s wombs.
Ancient Israel’s imperial borders stretched from the Mediterranean Sea to the Arabian Desert, from the Red Sea to the Euphrates River, all the while Great Britain was marshland and the American continent was overspread with Indian tribes.
June 25th, 2007 at 1:06 pm
“witness 9-11.”
Of course it is also trendy to blame Israel for the Al Qaeda attacks of 9-11. Unless of course it is even MORE trendy to accuse Israel (Mossad) of actually blowing up the WTC themselves or in tandem with their ‘dupes’ the CIA. John’s comment also fails to explain the earlier (failed) attempt at destroying the WTC, while the Oslo talks and accords were in full swing.
Steve said:
“Bin Laden hardly mentioned Israel. It may have been an afterthought. Bin Laden’s main pre-occupation was American troops stationed in the Hijaz; US military presence in the Saudi Kingdom is an abomination and a profanity.”
John said:
“Isr-Pal had become the symbolic issue driving Islamist terrorism. It is a symbol of the meddling of the West in the ME”
Grand Rebbe say:
Bin Laden (therefore Al Qaeda) belongs to a specialized sect of Islamic Apocalyptic, who have little interest for Israel. They are disciples of the Islamic Cleric Wahab. Wahab believed that the only sacred temple was Mecca. Talk of another (competing) sacred shrine such as Jerusalem, was blasphemous. That is why Bin Laden saved passing mention of Israel to the end of his video and DID NOT mention either land issues or anything regarding the Dome/Mosque, which was Arafat’s official explanation as to why a deal with Barak could not be possible. Bin Laden simply objected to the poor treatment of his Arab brothers.
June 25th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
Ancient Israel’s imperial borders stretched from the Mediterranean Sea to the Arabian Desert, from the Red Sea to the Euphrates River,
Rubbish.
this is the extreme leftist view. That a two-state (final) solution to the Jewish question is an essential contribution to solving our problem with the Muslim-Arab world. It’s poppycock. Muslim world has issues with the west that transcend the Jewish state.
Mainstream view. Israel and her supporters argue that it’s all about irreducible jihadist ideology and Judenhass that is supposedly part of Islamic DNA. They argue that because they want us to believe that the conflict with Israel is merely symptomatic and that there’s no great rush to negotiate. They make that argument in order to continue annexing territory by building settlements. The rest of the world has come to believe what Mr. Brown just said makes a lot more sense. Islamist suicide bombing began after 1967; not with Muhammad. To paraphrase, “It’s the occupation, stupid.”
June 25th, 2007 at 1:50 pm
p
June 25th, 2007 at 2:02 pm
June 25th, 2007 at 2:50 pm
I don’t believe God gives you something without expecting you to share it with your brothers. >>>>
You know it’s odd that you mention this. You remind me of Carter’s recent book. In it, several times he alludes to Cain (envying and then) murdering his own brother Abel.
Carter wrote: Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother? And he said, “I don not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”
And He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying from the ground?”
Carter does not say but the implication is clear. In Carter’s mind, Cain is Israel and Abel is “Palestine.” Or the philitines, what have you. The Jew in Carter’s mind is murdering his own brother Ishmael or the Philistines (palestinians).
It’s ironic. Quite the opposite is the case. It is not the Jew — who being jealous of his successful brother (Ishmael) — rises up and murders him out of hatred and spite. Jews hold no grudge against their wealthy Ishmaelite sheikhs. It is the other way around.
When the Zionists began returning to our ancient homeland, we drained the swamps. We planted Eucalyptus trees. We irrigated the desert and made the land into a garden of Eden, with the Almighty’s help.
You know this John if you have any sense of history. Ishmael became jealous with a murderous jealousy of his brother’s success, just as the Philistines envied Avraham and Yitzhak:
Gen 26:12 Now Isaac sowed in that land and reaped in the same year a hundredfold. And the LORD blessed him,
and the man became rich, and continued to grow richer until he became very wealthy;
for he had possessions of flocks and herds and a great household, so that the Philistines envied him.
Now all the wells which his father’s servants had dug in the days of Abraham his father, the Philistines stopped up by filling them with earth.
Then Abimelech said to Isaac, “Go away from us, for you are too powerful for us.”
Same holds true today John. My brother Ishmael is jealous with a murderous jealousy today. He, not Israel, is Jimmy Carter’s Cain.
June 25th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
Have you ever noticed in all those lists of peoples God said He would drive out before Joshua (the Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites, Perizzites, Hittites, Hivites, Jebusites, etc.) never once does He mention the Ishmaelites?>>>>
Maybe there were no Ishmaelites in the land or they were so few in number He did not mention them. Generally, this list did not include the Philistines, yet the Philistines proved to be Israel’s enemy number one. It took David to finally subdue this people that used implements of iron in war.
I noticed either in the book or Ezra or Nehemiah, there were Arabs in the land who did oppose the Jews building the wall around Jerusalem. It reminded me of today’s Arabs. Nothing has changed, has it?
June 25th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
The problem with your argument is that the Ishmaelites were more numerous than the Israelites and still are, hence the size of their territory. The point is that you cannot claim that God gave you the land exclusively. There is no evidence for that. The Israelites understood that their more numerous cousins the Ishmaelites were also sons of Abraham and they dwelled with them in the land.
Too bad the Zionists, who after all were not farmers but European urban-dwellers, did not simply choose the cities for their homes when they came to Palestine instead of buying farm land and learning to farm. Seventy percent of the Arab population lived in the rural farmlands, all of which was already taken and under cultivation in 1880. Room was available in the cities however. Anyway, didn’t happen.
June 25th, 2007 at 3:12 pm
Maybe there were no Ishmaelites in the land or they were so few in number He did not mention them.
Guess again. Twelve tribes of Ishmaelites spread out from the Sinai to Assyria.
Gen. 25:13-18
13 These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, 14 Mishma, Dumah, Massa, 15 Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. 16 These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. 17 Altogether, Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. 18 His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the border of Egypt, as you go toward Asshur. And they lived in hostility toward all their brothers.
June 25th, 2007 at 8:16 pm
Re: Old Testament Scriptures:
Just how sad are we that we must rely on the musings and ramblings of some long-dead authors, to tell us what we should already know, right from wrong.
Ezekial [say: ‘Yak-ei-elle’] for example got his inspration by having been extracted from the post of High Priest of the Temple of Solomon. He saw visions of insects and people digging through dirt walls. His book became part of the basis for the proto-Christian sects of Qumran. There is an entire collection of lesser known Jewish apocalyptic, most all of it written during very hard times (150-BCE - 134-CE). These books were also infused into the Greek Scriptures and what fewer people know is that some Qur’an verse seems to derive from these same sources.
The Jews of 133-CE Israel believed that the end of the world was at hand and guess what? It was for them.
There are some very valuable items of interest and wisdom to be found in the various scriptures. But the word of God himself? People are only as good as their ability to organically know right from wrong.
June 26th, 2007 at 6:21 pm
Here is a very good reference:
http://www.regimeofterror.com/
Saddam was an accident already happend and waiting to happen again. Just about the only thing George Bush II did that I approve of was iceing his ass. Long, long overdue.
June 27th, 2007 at 6:50 am
John,
PA Children:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/122885
July 6th, 2007 at 11:55 pm
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December 6th, 2007 at 6:27 pm
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December 10th, 2007 at 1:47 am
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