Thu 5 Jul 2007
Being Realistic About Peace
Posted by Mitchell Plitnick under Israel , Palestine , Peace Plans , AcademicsOne of the main concerns I hear from people reluctant to pursue any kind of peace process with the Palestinians and the larger Arab world is that people believe that any withdrawal from the Occupied Territories will only strengthen the resolve of the Palestinians to pursue the destruction of Israel. Indeed, the former Israeli Chief of Staff, Moshe Ya’alon, gave concrete voice to this view on July 4.
Similarly, in an article in the latest issue of Tikkun Magazine, Roger Gottlieb condescendingly paints an image of Israeli peace activists as being not only naive but insensitive to the fact that they really don’t know what will happen if the occupation were ended.
There are issues here, both real and illusory. Ya’alon’s claim that the withdrawal from Gaza led inevitably to the takeover by Hamas omits numerous key facts. As many of us, including myself, warned before the withdrawal, the unilateral nature of that withdrawal as well as its timing in light of the state of affairs in Gaza in 2005 rendered it impossible for the Palestinian Authority to establish control in the Strip. That situation was exacerbated by the Strip’s collapsed economy and its isolation even before the elections that brought Hamas to power. Out of such a state of affairs only chaos can emerge, and once that reigns, the next outcomes are entirely unpredictable.
Ya’alon similarly obscures the facts about Camp David, which I have already recounted in this space. Yet despite his propagandistic distortions (or, perhaps one might say, because of them), Ya’alon is giving voice to the belief of a majority of Israelis, Jews and many concerned people around the world.
The peace movement, in Israel, in Europe and in the United States has not adequately addressed this question. The offensive image that Gottlieb draws in Tikkun (the article seems only to be available in the print edition) of a peace activist, following stereotypical left wing politics, who cannot answer the questions about what happens after the end of the occupation, also holds in it a kernel of truth. In Gottlieb’s view, the activist hasn’t given serious consideration to these questions, can’t answer them and seemingly doesn’t care, simply moving on with her activist work despite not being able to address the issue.
In reality, the peace movement does not act blindly in this regard. There is a firm belief that Palestinian independence, in whatever configuration, will remove the basic driving force behind violence. Like Ya’alon’s cherry-picking of facts, there is a surface appeal to this view, but if we are to seriously consider the future, it is inadequate.
There is also the sub-heading for Gottlieb’s article, “Stop Unfairly Blaming Israel for Everything.” On the one hand, this seems to echo the disingenuous accusation against the Iraq Study Group that they said that solving the Israel-Palestine conflict was the key to defusing all the Mideast crises, something they did not say. On the other hand, the popular notion that Middle East turmoil is all centered on Palestine is just as wrong, ignoring not only modern political but also historical realities in the region.
There are real answers to these questions, but the more radical, but still somewhat sensible sectors of the left have been unable to articulate them, in some measure because they are too concerned about mollifying those in their own camp who, whether directly or indirectly, advocate the view that there can be no peace as long as Israel, as it is currently constituted, continues to exist. The more moderate left has generally shied away from describing a peace that would be both difficult and expensive.
In some instances, because realistic answers to these questions can only be formulated in terms of the real world– which means a system of states with imperfect and sometimes very corrupt and brutal regimes rule and in terms of real-world economics– these answers can’t be spoken on the left. But they are there.
What would a functional, post-occupation Middle East look like? If it is to be viable, Israel, the US and Europe will have to take wide-ranging measures to create a sustainable and functioning Palestinian economy. This can only be done by working with Israel directly–it is one of the reasons that the idea of total separation of Israel from a future Palestinian entity is unrealistic. Jordan as well could be a part of this economic partnership, one that can be purely economic–it does not need to imply any kind of political union.
Economic interdependence is the greatest insurance possible. It removes the incentives for conflict and creates, within both societies, powerful political forces, centered in burgeoning upper and middle classes, that will force their leaders to maintain the peace and to prosecute those who threaten it. International security guarantees for Israel would be bolstered by this internal Palestinian impetus. Moreover, should the Palestinian state in fact prove me wrong and dedicate itself to Israel’s destruction, it would not find nearly the kind of sympathy in Europe, the UN, even the US that it does now, and Israel, which would clearly still be the supreme military power in the region, would have much more freedom to act in its own defense.
Am I sure of all of this? Of course not. I am, however, certain that Ya’alon’s grim pronouncements are not based on the actual events on the ground as they took place. I am certain that the status quo offers no hope for a normal existence for Israel and no hope for anything for the Palestinians. And, above all else, I am certain that it is wrong to hold 4 million people under military rule for 40 years, with no guarantees of civil or human rights.
One might argue, and many do, that Israel has held the Occupied Territories only because it has been forced to, by attacks on its citizens both before and since the 1967 war. OK, that’s a debate with which we’re probably all way too familiar. But, if one has any scruples at all, one must agree that holding people without rights of citizenship for year after year is something that is wrong. The question then is only whether or not circumstances have justified that action. As a moral question it is no different from killing another person–most reasonable people agree that such an act is essentially wrong, but can be justified by certain circumstances, such as self-defense.
The question of whether the occupation is so justified is a debate that has been engaged many times and will continue to be. But the bottom line has to be that it is desirable to end any situation where millions of people are held without civil and human rights. It is simply unacceptable to abandon the search for a way to do that, whatever one thinks of the “enemy.” Asking for absolute guarantees is a way of abandoning that search. Life simply doesn’t come with such guarantees.
I do not believe Israel (or the Palestinians) are going to “trust” the other. So, a framework like the one I outlined, or something similar in form, is needed to create an atmosphere where peace is simply a better option than conflict, with tangible, rather than theoretical results. But there is always risk, and to search for a settlement that has no risk is, in practice, to refuse to search for a settlement.
The peace movement needs to talk in more realistic terms. If we want to see a better future for Israelis and Palestinians, we must accept that such a solution must occur in the world we live in. That is a world where things are not always fair, so we strive to make them as just as conditions allow. That is a world in which power prevails over ethics, so we must make things as ethical as we can in that context, knowing that, especially in this conflict, neither side is going to be able to fully realize what they see as their due.
That means that we can’t afford to wait until Israel and the Arab states all overcome the internal problems they have before coming to a solution that stops the current daily bloodshed (and it is daily, whether as a result of guns, bombs, missiles or malnutrition, unclean water and lack of medical supplies). Progress, if it is to come, will occur in a world where Israel is continuing to struggle with its treatment of its non-Jewish citizens, where Arabs live under varying degrees of dictatorship, and where other conflicts continue to seethe. It will occur in a world dominated by the capitalist system, which some on the left support and others do not. It will occur, finally, based on real measures for security and economic development, based on the global systems we have now and will, perforce, involve the United States protecting its own perceived interests. If we don’t accept those conditions, we will make the already insanely difficult task of resolving this conflict impossible. 
In that respect, Gottlieb is correct in his criticism of peace activists. He could, however, have made that critique without the ridicule he used. He could also have made the valid point that resolving the Israel-Palestine issue is not going to solve the problem of the wider Middle East being immersed in conflict without sounding like an apologist for Israeli human rights violations.
The Iraq Study Group was widely accused of making the claim that resolving the Israel-Palestine conflict would be a big step in resolving conflicts around the Middle East. Those conflicts have grown far more intense and complicated thanks to the Bush Administration’s incompetence in their Middle East policy, particularly with regard to Iraq and their tactic of essentially ignoring Israel-Palestine.
But what the ISG said, in fact, was that US diplomacy in the region was not going to be effective without resolving the Palestine issue. And they’re right; the quagmire of Iraq has no immediate resolution for the US. Even if they pulled out immediately, the ongoing fighting would remain a black mark on America’s reputation in the region. And as bad as Iraq is, the Arab world’s essentially correct perception that the US has been consistently and severely one-sided in its approach to the Israel-Palestine issue causes just as much of a credibility problem in the Arab world as Iraq does. The ISG simply acknowledged this reality and made the rather axiomatic assertion that American leadership in calming the region (should the US change its policy toward trying to do so, an effort it has not made for some time) would no longer be able to overcome the ill will generated by the Palestinian issue.
Perhaps more to the point, resolving, or at least improving significantly on the status quo in the Israel-Palestine conflict might actually raise tensions in the Arab world. Without that safety valve, Arab people might well become much more active in their own countries against dictatorships which are mostly propped up, in one way or another, by US support. It would also likely bring into much more stark relief the competition between the Saudis and Iran for regional hegemony.
In any case, the legacy of centuries of imperial rule under the Ottomans, followed by a relatively brief colonialist period; arbitrary drawing of a map of the region by early 20th century European powers concerned about their own fiefdoms rather than the regional and ethnic issues; a poorly managed de-colonization process and subsequent flooding of the region with weapons large and small; as well as ongoing outside interest and interference in the region due to the central place oil holds in the global economy are all factors that lead to boiling conflict that have no connection to the plight of the Palestinians. More recently, the rise of the violent Islamist movements and their conflict with more educated and moderate Muslims as well as secularists in the region add a whole new dimension, one which will continue to inflame the Mideast with or without Israel.
None of that detracts from the importance of resolving the Israel-Palestine conflict. In many ways, such a resolution could well help with those other issues. Taking advantage of the Arab offer of normal relations will spread diverse economic opportunities throughout the region. The resolution of the Palestinian issue can also serve as a spark for peacemaking throughout the region, since, after all, if the Israelis and Palestinians can come to an accommodation, can’t these other warring groups? Indeed, Israel and Palestine can become a force in the region for accommodation and peace, rather than a flash point for conflict. 
But no one really knows what will happen. Politicians and academics and others all hatch wonderful theories about what this or that action or event will lead to. And the farther into the future they project, the more of a guess it is. I claim no better insight. Predicting the future is always guesswork–sometimes educated, sometimes not, but it’s always a shot in the dark and predictions by the best of us are wrong more often than they’re right.
But if we strive to do the right thing by everyone, we are at least putting our best foot forward. When we recognize that conflicts cannot be resolved by pushing for the interest of only one side, we stand a better chance of dealing with future challenges because we will have more variety of partners and less diversity of adversaries.
Israelis deserve a better life. Palestinians deserve a better life. Israelis deserve not to live in fear. Palestinians deserve that and also deserve to have the civil and human rights we all expect. If both peoples can get those things, maybe they can, individually or together, spread them throughout the region where fear is often present and civil and human rights are all too often missing. Those of us who care about Israelis, who care about Palestinians and/or who care about human rights in general would do well to maintain that vision, and would do even better to keep that vision focused on work that is based on the world we actually live in, not the one we wish for.
133 Responses to “Being Realistic About Peace”
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July 5th, 2007 at 3:47 am
[…] YouTube Link to Article iraq Being Realistic About Peace » Posted at The Third Way: A Different View of the Middle East on Thursday, July 05, 2007 One of the main concerns I hear from people reluctant to pursue any kind of peace process with the Palestinians and the larger Arab world is that people believe that any withdrawal from the Occupied Territories will only strengthen the resolve of the Palestinians to pursue the destruction of Israel View Entire Article » […]
July 6th, 2007 at 9:12 am
measures to create a sustainable and functioning Palestinian economy. This can only be done by working with Israel directly
Perhaps at first the investment of Israeli capital in the form of business loans to Palestinian businessmen? I’m trying to imagine how this would begin. Not sure how this works from the other direction, apart from the contribution of a labor supply. Mitchell’s point is excellent, in any case.
–it is one of the reasons that the idea of total separation of Israel from a future Palestinian entity is unrealistic.
Maybe political form will follow economic function? An Isr-Pal federation? Something like the EU but with the economics leading the states?
Does a “Jewish state” necessarily imply a Jewish economy? This was the original sin, as it were, of the Yishuv, their goal of a Jewish autarky, i.e., an independent Jewish economy. Am I right in thinking an interdependent economy would represent a historic reversal? (I have never understood why the pioneers insisted on becoming farmers after immigrating instead of continuing as European urban-dwellers). Anyway, is interdependence an ideological issue?
July 7th, 2007 at 1:00 am
Sadly for everyone, the Palestinian-Arabs seem incapable of running a country. Who their neighbors happen to be is somewhat fortuitous. Total withdrawal therefore means a total opportunity for the new landlords to re-create “Lord of the Flies”.
July 7th, 2007 at 7:16 am
How would we know if they are capable of running a country, Isidor?
So far they’ve been living under military occupation complete with a wall shutting them off from the outside world and each other? They are living in a ghetto. The PA is a occupation-authority.
Was the Jewish State recognized based on how well the Jews had “governed themselves” in the Polish ghettos and concentration camps? I thought they had an uprising or two. The occupation is an abnormal situation on-going for forty years now. It bears no resemblance to a country.
The Palestinians are governing themselves about like any other people would when they are like fish in a barrel.
July 7th, 2007 at 7:44 am
John:
The Jewish resistance during WW2 was sometimes quite well run and rarely (if ever) was there any violence between Jews and other Jews.
If not for the fact that so few lived to tell about their experiences, about another dozen “Shindler’s List” or “Life is Beautiful” stories would have certainly hit the streets. In one example, a group of Polish Jews found an old mikva with which they supplied water to the rest of the Ghetto for like a year, after the Nazis turned off the supply of water. There was no aid from the rest of the world and certainly no theft or corruption or Swiss bank accounts containing billions of skimmed dollars. The Jewish refugees were turned away from entering numerous countries (including the USA) and sent back to die in gas chambers. In the case of the Palestinian-Arabs, their own Arab and Muslim brothers have been politically blocking the UNHCR from providing permanent homes for them for decades.
How do we know they can’t run a country?
The “West” and Israel has been BEGGING them to run a country. They don’t want to run a country, they want to run a war. One that does not go away until the Jews go away.
Besides: Are we in agreement that George Bush II can’t run a country? How do we know?
Do we know that Paris Hilton can’t run a car? How in the world would we know that?
Do we know that Jim McGreevy can’t run a hetero-sexual family?
Lastly, do we know that FEMA can’t run an emergency?
Grow up.
Thank you.
July 7th, 2007 at 8:13 am
Why would Palestinian Arabs not be able to run a country, unlike any humans who ever existed? Isidor, this is a racist myth. I used to hear that kind of thing in the 50’s here in the South all the time. “Why give blacks (they didn’t use that word) equal rights? They are incapable of living in civilized society like decent people.” How can you even repeat that kind of bullsh*t with a straight face? My point was not how well or how poorly the Jews “governed themselves” in WW II. My point was that THAT was not the basis on which the State of Israel was recognized in 1948. Not on the basis of getting a B+ or an A+ in governing themselves where-ever. Self-determination is a universal human right. Here in this country, we hold that to be “an inalienable right.” It goes with having 23 pairs of chromosomes in your nuclei. One thing we do know, you can’t govern yourself without a country to govern!
July 7th, 2007 at 10:28 am
John:
Your point is completely without moment.
You say my statement is “racist” but I have no such comparable statement to make about the Jordanians, who are perfectly capable of running a nation. Other Arab and Muslim countries (such as Turkey and Morocco) have no such problems and even though I have no admiration for certain regimes — such as the Saudis, I do NOT deny them the ability to conduct their affairs without the need to be at war 100% of the time.
Unlike you, who gets all bent out of shape if I would have made a comparable statement about you (”racist”) I just chalk this one up to one of your very many flights-of-fancy.
My father was a civil rights activist in the 1960’s South, who put his life in jeopardy.
I made sure that a Black Muslim friend got into the 1992 Democratic convention in the only way I could, by giving him my ticket.
Your comparison is ridiculous.
I don’t frankly care what Bubba might have said about the Negros in the 1960s. It does not change the fact that the Palestinian-Arab Government is ‘Lord of the Flies’ and has little chance of evolving into a functional government. What you also fail to understand is that many of the Arabic enemies of Israel like it fine that way. If they could, they would have Charles Manson paroled from prison and appointed to run the Palestinian Authority. That is who the Mufti was and that is ostensive-ly who Arafat was too.
July 7th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
If it’s not a race-based myth, then please explain your statement without having recourse to talking about Palestinians Arabs as a group:
“Sadly for everyone, the Palestinian-Arabs seem incapable of running a country.”
Some Arabs you say are capable of running a country, but not the Palestinian-Arabs, who you say are identical with the Jordanians in every other respect. Why is that? Why are these 4 million Arabs incapable of running a country? Is it their location? Is it something in the water? Is it the climate? Is it bad felafel? What could it be?
July 7th, 2007 at 5:47 pm
I completely agree with the above commentator. Palestinian Arabs are capable of “running a country,” whatever that means, although it won’t look like Western Europe or the U.S. For a smart critique of the entire notion of “development,” which was behind the entire Oslo process and general U.S. approach to Palestinian governance see Arturo Escobar’s book Encountering Development: The Making and Unmaking of the Third World. It’s about Latin America, but it’s historical insights apply to the Palestinian Territories.
The main problems for the Palestinians today lie outside of their control. That doesn’t excuse the internal divisions, but it does situate them.
July 7th, 2007 at 7:07 pm
John:
I really believe my statements are explanitory in intricate detail. You are just fishing for something to pick apart.
The Palestinian-Arabs are NOT any seperate race from the hundreds of millions of other Arabs, possibly except those in the North African Area. There are differing cultures across the M.E. These are mainly man-made or the result of the influence of oil and or religion.
You make it sould as if my original statement (quoted again above) was somehow far-fetched and needs some grand-e-ous thesis. I tell you again. All they know is war. They have had chance upon chance upon chance to become educated, well-to-do and modern rulers of their own destiny. Except someone (more probably the sum total of dictators in the M.E.) have convinced them that it is their pride they lack and the Israelis have stolen it. They are (for the dozenth time) pawns. Pawns have a hard time taking over the chess board. Especially when they have had so many chances to do so.
July 7th, 2007 at 7:25 pm
“I really believe my statements are explanitory in intricate detail. You are just fishing for something to pick apart.”i>
In other words, you admit that it is a myth and cannot defend it:
“Sadly for everyone, the Palestinian-Arabs seem incapable of running a country.”
The truth is that the Palestinian-Arabs are no different from anybody else, certainly no different from the Jews. If the Nazis had simply cooped the Jews up in the Warsaw Ghetto and not killed them all but forced them to live there persecuted for forty years, do you seriously think the Jews would have evolved their own self-governing state in that place? The Israelis have created a ghetto, a number of them actually, for the Palestinians complete with a “security fence.” Were you aware that that was how the Germans described the wall around the Warsaw Ghetto? They said it was a security barrier to protect the surrounding Aryan peoples from diseases inside the “Wohnbezirk” (residential quarter). No genocide in the Occupied Territories, thank God, but the living conditions are comparably inhumane. Human beings don’t respond well to that kind of environment, Isidor. The Jews in Warsaw put up with it for less than a year, I think. The Palestinians for forty. God knows how. That’s why they have a “Lord of the Flies” government, as you so ungenerously put it. They don’t have a country to govern; just a ghetto where they are kept like rats.
July 7th, 2007 at 7:26 pm
…That’s why they have a “Lord of the Flies” government, as you so ungenerously put it. They don’t have a country to govern; just a ghetto where they are kept like rats.
July 7th, 2007 at 8:19 pm
“Sadly for everyone, the Palestinian-Arabs seem incapable of running a country.”
The following is a description of the self-governance system in the Warsaw Ghetto taken from The Stroop Report, prepared for SS-General Jürgen Stroop, the commander of the operation which put down the revolt there. The report was used in evidence against him at Nuremberg, where he was later hanged. The comparisons with the system of self-governance in the WB and Gaza are striking. We are not dealing with countries here; but with ghettos under military occupation and systems of military administration:
“The Jewish Council [Ältestenrat] administered the new Jewish quarter. It received its instructions from the Commisioner for the Jewish Quarter, who was directly subordinate to the Governor. The Jews had administrative autonomy, and German supervision was limited to occasions when German interests were affected. A Jewish Police [Ordnungsdienst] was established to implement orders of the Jewish Council. They were identified by special arm bands and caps, and were armed with rubber truncheons. This Jewish police force was responsible for maintaining order and security within the Jewish quarter and was subordinate to the German and Polish Police.”
As we all know, in 1943, after three years of living in hell, “order” broke down and there was an uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, what would be called in Arabic an intifada.
The comparison did not originate with me. It was reported in Haaretz that a senior Israeli officer made the recommendation that the IDF should study the methods the Germans used in the Warsaw Ghetto for dealing with security measures in the Occupied Territories:
“In order to prepare properly for the next campaign, one of the Israeli officers in the territories said not long ago, it’s justified and in fact essential to learn from every possible source. If the mission will be to seize a densely populated refugee camp, or take over the casbah in Nablus, and if the
commander’s obligation is to try to execute the mission without casualties on either side, then he must first analyze and internalize the lessons of earlier battles - even, however shocking it may sound, how the German army
fought in the Warsaw ghetto.” (Amir Oren, “At the gates of Yassergrad,” Haaretz, 25 January 2002)
A subsequent article in Haaretz reports that “a senior officer can say, unhesitatingly, that the IDF should study how the SS put down the Warsaw Ghetto revolt, to learn about ways to fight inside Palestinian cities.” (Uzi
Benziman, “Corridors of Power, Immoral Imperative,” Haaretz, 1 February
2002)
July 7th, 2007 at 8:37 pm
Self-determination is a universal human right. Here in this country, we hold that to be “an inalienable right.”>>>>
John, go back and read about Woodrow Wilson. Do your homework man. Even Wilson and his loony fourteen points (his notion of self-determination) could not envision self-determination for some slobs. You really don’t know your history John. Do a little study on this mythological “self-determination.” Why do you utter such nonsense void of any intellect and historical analysis?
July 7th, 2007 at 8:46 pm
Isidor, this is a racist myth>>>>
Accusations of racism are the ramblings of a man without an cogent argument.
July 7th, 2007 at 8:49 pm
John opines: “EVERYONE THAT DOES NOT AGREE WITH ME IS A RACIST! Why? CUZ. Why CUZ! Why? CUZ I SAY THEY ARE RACIST! BY GOLLY, EVERYONE IS A RACIST WHO DISAGREES WITH ME!
July 7th, 2007 at 8:54 pm
The truth is that the Palestinian-Arabs are no different from anybody else, certainly no different from the Jews. If the Nazis had simply cooped the Jews up in the Warsaw Ghetto and not killed them all but forced them to live there persecuted for forty years, do you seriously think the Jews would have evolved their own self-governing state in that place? >>>>>
I cannot believe the depths of your ignorance John. You know nothing of Jewish history. Nothing. You utter complete and utter nonsense.
I might not have evolved my own sense of self-governance in ghetto environment. I have much faith and confidence in the Jews because unlike you, I know my history.
July 7th, 2007 at 9:02 pm
John wrote: “The truth is that the Palestinian-Arabs are no different from anybody else, certainly no different from the Jews. If the Nazis had simply cooped the Jews up in the Warsaw Ghetto and not killed them all but forced them to live there persecuted for forty years, do you seriously think the Jews would have evolved their own self-governing state in that place?”>>>>>>
What historians have you read about the Jews John? What have you read about the Jewish Ghetto? Name your sources. Please.
Jews have suffered immeasurably more than these so-called Palestinians; under immeasurably worse conditions and we did not spend all our resources on the accumulation of weapons and training are children to be suicide bombers.
Do yourself a favor John. Do some reading about the Jews before you bare your ignorance of Jewish history before the world.
July 7th, 2007 at 9:06 pm
As we all know, in 1943, after three years of living in hell, “order” broke down and there was an uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, what would be called in Arabic an intifada.
July 7th, 2007 at 9:39 pm
“Do a little study on this mythological “self-determination.” Why do you utter such nonsense void of any intellect and historical analysis?”
http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cpr.html
Universal Declaration of Human Rights
UN International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
PART 1
Article 1
“All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.”
July 7th, 2007 at 10:16 pm
Steve:
It is VERY difficult to reason with John.
He can spin a web of moral equivilency on most any front. John, perhaps you can explain to us why Princess Diana and Mother Theresa were moral equivilants.
He claims that the Palestinian-Arabs were stedily ghettoized for the past 40 years but in 1984 when I was there, there were no “ghettos”, just neighborhoods. John is a living lab example of how evolution is not always such a good thing.
July 7th, 2007 at 10:38 pm
” in 1984 when I was there, there were no “ghettos”, just neighborhoods.”
We’ve gone over that. Yes, things were relatively better for a time back when. But only relatively. The occupied territories were still…well, occupied.
What that meant in human rights terms is that the people were deprived of their universal right to self-determination. And it means that Israel, a State signatory to the UN Charter and the State responsible for protecting the people in question, was in violation of its obligations under the Charter to ensure that right (and others).
The comparison between Warsaw and West Bank, say, is not exact by any means; only rough. I’m not even comparing the IDF to the SS in the present instance. What I am comparing is the self-governance in the two ghettos. That kind of governance is nothing to judge any people by. And considering that the people in question are under occupation by the Israeli Defense Forces, the Israelis of all people are not in a moral position to judge them “incapable of governing themselves.” That’s really an outrageous assertion, which is my main point in all this. No doubt the Nazis thought the Jews of Warsaw a pretty unruly lot also. Who the hell cares what the Nazis thought about Jewish self-governance in the Ghetto, or what the Israelis think about Palestinian self-governance in the territories? To both, I’d say, “Up yours!”
July 8th, 2007 at 5:23 am
John has reacted angrily because I have apparantly, touched a nerve. However, I am not an Israeli and I do not speak for or as the Israelis.
A significant portion of the modern-day “Palestinians” were first pawn-ized when they were relocated into Palestine, between WW1 and WW2. This population was further pawn-ized after WW2 when someone convinced them it was better off to kill Jews then exploit them.
They remain pawns. They are pawns of the Arab countries such as Syria and (formerly) of Iraq, Saudi Arabia and others who wanted a proxy war fought against the Hebrews often on more political terms then any other reason. After 90 years, the world (and even some Arabs) are beginning to wake up to this fact and that is why John is having such a BAD day.
July 8th, 2007 at 5:25 am
The “separation barrier”
I would make a comparison between the walls around the two places though. As I said the Germans cynically described the enclosing of the Jews behind a “separation barrier” [Trennungsmauer] as a hygiene operation and the ghetto as a quarantine zone and security zone for the protection of the surrounding Aryan population from diseases inside. The Israelis cynically describe their “separation barrier” as a security measure for the protection of the surrounding Jewish population from terrorists inside. I have no doubt both walls were effective in terms of protecting those outside, though that was not / is not their true purpose, as the respective tribunals agreed.
Human beings were not made to live behind such walls. Nor were human beings not made to force other human beings to live behind such walls like rats. What comes out of such is not what God intended for human beings.
July 8th, 2007 at 5:39 am
“John has reacted angrily because I have apparantly, touched a nerve.”
Yes as I explained the nerve you touched goes back to my childhood when there was segregation in the South. I’m grateful your father was part of the effort to put an end to that and you are justifiably proud of him. But part of the segregationist rhetoric he would have heard down here at that time was to the effect that “we” should not give the blacks equal rights in “our” society because “they were not ready for it,” i.e., “they” had not proved themselves worthy or capable of living on a plane with “us.” This was particularly the case when there was violence and demonstrations. It was a way of blaming a very bad situation on the victims themselves, who were held by all to be savages, jungle folk, at a more primitive level of development (”Lord of the Flies”). Sorry for the angry outburst, but yes you touched a nerve. I don’t think you have a racist bone in your body, Isidor. But you have picked up a bit of race-based rhetoric with that “incapable of governing themselves” talk. Have a GOOD day.
July 8th, 2007 at 8:00 am
John:
To my thinking, the Jews are far more alike the 1960s Blacks. Of course, the 1960s Blacks had been downtrodden from decades of poor educational ops and lower ops in general but refer to that famous line in “Mississippi Burning” wherein the guy’s father kills the neighbor’s mule and when asked why he did that he replies:
“Because aint no ni**er gonna be better then us”.
In the Mid East, until 1947, the Jews (not the Arabs) were the minority group. You seem to bipass this CRITICAL distinction. There is no offsetting factor to mitigate the effect of being the minority.
The Arab position was similar to the mule story. Namely, these Hebrews have been kept in their rightful place for all this time, (hundreds of years) no way are they going to be permitted to get the better: house, farm, hospital, library, government or anything else.
I know that your mind will not permit the equating of Jews and Blacks because you have your LP needle skipping on Arabs being the downtrodden group. But these are relitive concepts. Where would Israel be today if they were not stuck in an eternal war? Their hospitals might be twice as good, their houses twice as nice, their technology twice as valuable, etc..
July 8th, 2007 at 8:24 am
Human beings were not made to live behind such walls. Nor were human beings not made to force other human beings to live behind such walls like rats.>>>>
When human beings behave like rats (or beasts) you fence them off so they can’t harm anyone. Had Native Americans behaved like these beings, U.S. government instead of expelling them, would have exterminated them; the entire race.
July 8th, 2007 at 8:30 am
Arabs being the downtrodden group.
Both, I think. Both are victims of the Occupation / Kibush. But the Israelis are on top of the heap, the occupiers. The Palestinians are on the bottom of the heap, the occupied. Both are brutalized almost beyond recognition at this piont.
July 8th, 2007 at 8:42 am
“All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.”
The corrupt United Nations lacks any credibility as an impartial arbiter.
Woodrow Wilson drug out this notion self-determination at the 1919 Paris Peace Conference in his 14 points, yet Wilson had no sympathy for Irish nationals and their struggle to free themselves from British rule. He gave Japan Shantung in violation of his principle of self determination.
What right of self-determination have we given Native Americans? Do they have their own separate nation? Can they make treaties with other nations? If not, why not? Do they have a seat at the United Nations? What do we call this separate nation today?
In 1827, Cherokee Indians adopted their own constitution declaring they were not subject to any other state or nation. The discovery of gold in 1829 whetted the whites’ appetite for Cherokee lands and brought bands of rough prospectors into the country. The Cherokees sought relief in the Supreme Court. In 1831 Cherokee Nation v. Georgia, did U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice John Marshall rule that Cherokees were a foreign state in the meaning of the U.S. Constitution? No.
He did however rule for the majority that Cherokees had “unquestionable right” to their lands. Georgia faced down the U.S. Supreme court with the tacit support of President Andrew Jackson who expelled the tribes west of the Mississippi. Where is the “self-determination?”
Wilson’s Secretary of State, Robert Lansing asked: “When the President talks of ’self-determination’ what unit has he in mind? Does he mean a race, a territorial area, or a community? It was a calamity, Lansing thought, that Wilson had ever hit on the phrase. “It will raise hopes which can never be realized. It will, I fear, cost thousands of lives. In the end, it is bound to be discredited, to be called a dream of an idealist who failed to realize the danger until it was too late to check those who attempt to put the principle in force.”
July 8th, 2007 at 9:02 am
When human beings behave like rats (or beasts) you fence them off so they can’t harm anyone.
A bit of Holocaust history from The Stroop Report again may shed some light on that:
“The creation of Jewish quarters and the imposition of reisdential and economic restrictions on the Jews are nothing new in the history of the East. These practices began as far back as the Middle Ages and have continued through the last few centuries. These restrictions were imposed with the intention of protecting the Aryan population from the Jews…
…the number of arbitrary and unwarranted frontier crossings by Jews increased. This was especially true at the border of the Lowicz and Skierniewice districts. These illegal migrations began to threaten not only hygiene but also security conditions in the town of Lowicz. In order to avert these dangers, the senior district official began to create Jewish quarters in his district.
The experiences derived from the establishment of Jewish quarters in the Lowicz District showed that these methods were the only suitable ones to banish the dangers which emanate from the Jews…the Department of Health strongly urged the establishment of a Jewish quarter in order to preserve the health of the German troops as well as that of the civilian population.”
See, the justification or excuse for caging people up like rats behind a wall is for the protection of the occupying military forces and of the decent people living nearby. “So they can’t harm anyone.” I’m sure it worked. I’m sure the Israeli wall works too. But that’s not why either of them were built, and the Court in The Hague agrees.*
Now do you begin to understand why the despised international community created The Fourth Geneva Convention in 1949?
*
“137. To sum up, the Court, from the material available to it, is not convinced that the specific course Israel has chosen for the wall was necessary to attain its security objectives. The wall, along the route chosen, and its associated régime gravely infringe a number of rights of Palestinians residing in the territory occupied by Israel, and the infringements resulting from that route cannot be justified by military exigencies or by the requirements of national security or public order. The construction of such a wall accordingly constitutes breaches by Israel of various of its obligations under the applicable international humanitarian law and human rights instruments.” (page 49)
http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Documents/icj20040709.pdf
July 8th, 2007 at 9:22 am
John wrote: “These restrictions were imposed with the intention of protecting the Aryan population from the Jews…..these methods were the only suitable ones to banish the dangers which emanate from the Jews…the Department of Health strongly urged the establishment of a Jewish quarter in order to preserve the health of the German troops as well as that of the civilian population.”
See, the justification or excuse for caging people up like rats behind a wall is for the protection of the occupying military forces and of the decent people living nearby. “So they can’t harm anyone.” I’m sure it worked. I’m sure the Israeli wall works too. But that’s not why either of them were built, and the Court in The Hague agrees.”>>>>>
Perhaps the Jewish ghetto was not such a bad idea. It helped to protect the Jew from assimilation and intermarriage. We Jews are to be a separate people you know. But for what was the Aryan population in need of protection from the Jews? Jewish ideas? Host desecration? Using Christian children’s blood in our matzo at Passover? Intermarriage?
Were Jews committing violent atrocities against the Poles in Lowicz like these Muslim-Arabs do to the Jews in Israel? Unlike these Muslim Arabs, Jews were not committing acts of savagery.
July 8th, 2007 at 9:25 am
Steve:
You are not going far with the American history. All true and more but not relivant to 2007.
What is relivant is how other countries (in 2007) would handle similar conditions in 2007. The USA would vaporize the enemy and ask questions later. As would most other nations ESPECIALLY the Arabs.
Chirac made it clear that a nuclear response was planned in the event of a terror attack on France (even one).
Your comment about rats is equally unproductive. Palestinian-Arabs are humans, not rats.
The security fence is an anti-terror measure, not an anti-person (or anti-rat) measure. Besides, rats could not be stopped with a fence.
Again, most of the world has proudly displayed its true colors as cowards and hypocrits by asserting that Israeli security can only be acheved through surrender.
Different shit, same day.
July 8th, 2007 at 9:38 am
John, I’ve abbreviated this somewhat read this very carefully John. ADL has many fine lawyers.
http://www.adl.org/Israel/court_of_justice.asp
On December 8, 2003, the General Assembly (GA), in a special emergency session adopted a Palestinian-initiated resolution sending the issue of Israel’s security barrier to the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in The Hague for an advisory opinion on the question: “What are the legal consequences arising from the construction of the wall being built by Israel, the occupying Power, in the Occupied Palestinian Territory.” The Palestinian Authority and supporters had attempted to have the Security Council pass such a resolution, however these efforts were unsuccessful, and they turned instead to the General Assembly, where anti-Israel resolutions are routinely supported by the majority of member nations. The resolution passed 90-8, with 74 countries abstaining…..
The ICJ decision comes just a week after the Israeli Supreme Court ordered a section of the barrier outside of Jerusalem rerouted to reduce hardships caused by the location of the fence. The opinion upheld Israel’s right to build the fence of security reasons. The Israeli court’s decision demonstrates the vibrant nature of Israel’s democracy and its independent judiciary, its commitment to the rule of law and to upholding humanitarian principles - even while fighting a war against terrorism. It also demonstrates that the routing and the very existence of the fence is changeable and not permanent.
What is The International Court of Justice?
The International Court of Justice, based in the Hague, describes itself on its website as “the principal judicial organ of the United Nations.” The Court presents its mandate as serving a dual role - first to resolve legal disputes submitted by individual states, and second to provide advisory opinions on questions of international law referred to it by other international bodies…..
It should be noted that because Israel is currently barred from participating in United Nations Geneva-based regional groups (although Israel is now a member of the New York-based UN regional group) an Israeli judge cannot be elected to the court, nor can the State of Israel even participate in the voting for the makeup of the court.
According to the Court’s web site, only states can appear before the ICJ. The Court, in turn, can hear and rule on a dispute only if the states concerned have accepted its jurisdiction. ….
The ICJ’s advisory opinions are “consultative in character and are therefore not binding as such on the requesting bodies.” It is possible, however, that certain instruments or regulations can provide in advance that an advisory opinion will be binding. According to the ICJ web site, the Court has issued 24 Advisory Opinions since 1946.
What is Israel’s Security Fence?
Israel’s security fence is a defensive measure enacted by Israel to prevent Palestinian terrorists from reaching their civilian targets inside Israel. The decision to build the fence was undertaken by the Government of Israel following three years of unabated terrorism by Palestinians suicide bombers, who have targeted Israeli buses, cafes, shopping centers and other gathering points for Israeli civilians. Nearly 1,000 Israelis have been killed, and thousands severely injured in these attacks. Throughout this period, the Palestinian Authority has done nothing to prevent these attacks or to abolish the terrorist infrastructure despite its commitment to do so in agreements with Israel. Israel had no choice but to take strong action to stop these terrorists from entering Israel from their operation centers in the West Bank.
The 480-mile security barrier, currently under construction, is comprised 97% of chain link fence and 3% of a concrete barrier. The entire barrier is a multi-fence system which incorporates ditches, barbed wire, patrol roads and observation systems. Contrary to anti-Israel propaganda, only 5 miles of the barrier is concrete, or can be described as “a wall.” The concrete sections are primarily in the area of the Palestinian cities of Qualqilya and Tulkarim, the locus of many terrorist operations, where snipers often shoot at Israeli civilians.
Already the security fence is helping to prevent terrorist bombings. According to the Israeli government, there has been a dramatic decrease in Palestinian terrorism - not because there have been no attempted attacks, but because the security barrier has impeded terrorists from reaching Israeli cities, or has forced them to take more circuitous routes, leading to their capture. Indeed, to date in 2004, no Israeli has been killed in a terrorist attack in an area with the security fence, whereas 19 were killed, and 102 injured in areas where the fence has not been completed. (See Statistics Here)
The Government of Israel has stated that the security fence is a temporary and reversible measure that has been created in reaction to the reality of ongoing Palestinian terrorism. Should the Palestinian Authority take steps to end the terrorism and if progress is made in peace negotiations, there will be no need for this protective barrier and it can be dismantled.
Conflict to be Determined Through Negotiations, not The Court
It is clear that the International Court of Justice is not an appropriate forum for issues related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. These issues, including the security fence, should be settled through bilateral negotiations, and not be predetermined or imposed by the ICJ or other international bodies. This principle of direct negotiations by the parties is enshrined in all Middle East peace initiatives - including the UN-co-sponsored Road Map. (The UN is a member of the “Quartet” which sponsored the Road Map, and includes the United States, the European Union and Russia.) Preempting, prejudging or bypassing those negotiations threatens the real hope for peaceful relations between Israelis and Palestinians.
A non-binding opinion by the ICJ will make little practical difference on the ground, but those countries who lobbied for the UN resolution are more interested in scoring public relations points against Israel than in seeking constructive opportunities to promote reconciliation between Israel and the Palestinians.
Indeed, the very wording of the General Assembly resolution is politically charged and extremely prejudicial, reflecting the motivation of the resolution’s sponsors and supporters. The security barrier is called a “wall,” Israel, the “occupying Power,” and the West Bank referred to as “Occupied Palestinian Territory.” There is no mention of Israel’s reasons for constructing the security fence orof Palestinian terrorism - factors that the Court must consider for a fair opinion.
Dangerous Repercussions for The Integrity of The Court
There are serious repercussions to the ICJ issuing an opinion on a highly contentious and political issue which has been referred to them as a result of a politicized campaign by the U.N. General Assembly. This is a serious misuse of the Court and threatens to undermine its integrity and the integrity of international law. It opens the door to similar politicized campaigns to bring sovereign nations, such as the United States, to defend their foreign policy before the International Court of Justice.
Moreover, while the ICJ statute allows for UN bodies to refer issues to the ICJ for advisory opinions, disputes are heard by the ICJ only if the principal countries accept the jurisdiction of the ICJ. Given the contentious nature of this dispute, and the fact that Israel has not accepted to jurisdiction of the ICJ to rule on this matter, an advisory opinion on the security fence could be considered a contravention of the Court’s established principles of jurisdiction and could set a precedent for its involvement in other political conflicts.
Continuing Manipulation of UN System by Anti-Israel Forces
For over fifty years, a campaign of manipulation and abuse of the United Nations system has been waged by those who seek to isolate and delegitimize the State of Israel. The General Assembly, the UN Commission on Human Rights, and other UN bodies regularly demonize Israel in biased resolutions, unbalanced scrutiny, and in hostile statements. Such anti-Israel activities and statements raise serious questions about the United Nations’ interest in Israeli-Palestinian reconciliation, as well as to the appropriateness of the UN Secretariat’s involvement in Israeli-Palestinian negotiations as a member of the Road Map Quartet. This anti-Israel environment in the UN serves to undermine constructive efforts to promote Israeli-Palestinian negotiations.
Presentations to the Court
In the weeks leading up to the Court’s oral hearings, forty-nine nations and international organizations, submitted briefs to the ICJ. The majority, including the European Union (all 15 current members, plus the ten countries joining), the United States, Canada, Russia, Australia, Micronesia and the Marshall Islands submitted written briefs questioning the International Court of Justice’s jurisdiction to advise on the issue of Israel’s security fence. Others, including the member nations of the Arab League and Cuba, submitted briefs arguing for an ICJ opinion on the fence.
In addition, fifteen countries, all of whom called for an ICJ opinion condemning the fence, made oral presentations before the Court.
The written briefs and oral presentations are available on the ICJ Web Site.
ADL has also prepared a summary of the oral and written arguments.
July 8th, 2007 at 9:57 am
Steve, why would I want to read these arguments after the Court has already considered them and ruled on them? I’m sure they are of historical interest, but the ruling came down on July 9, 2004.
The specific route of the wall was found not to be justified “by military exigencies or by the requirements of national security or public order.”
Israel did not participate in the entire proceeding at all, showing its true colors from the outset in having no interest in meeting their “obligations under the applicable international humanitarian law and human rights instruments.” The Fourth Geneva Convention was written largely for Israel. Israel signed it in 1949 and also signed the UN Charter which guarantees the right of self-determination to all human beings (though you seem not to grasp that fact). But Israel has treated the Convention and the international community with contemptuous disregard ever since. You seem to think there would be peace if only EVERYBODY ELSE in the world would just go away. Standard procedure for gangsters to claim the courts are unfit to judge them, of course. What other planet were you planning to search on for a suitable court?
July 8th, 2007 at 10:13 am
You aren’t going to read it because you are like the man who say, “My mind is made up, don’t confuse me with the facts.”
Some of the interesting and pertentent points this article addresses are the following. How would you respond?
“It is clear that the International Court of Justice is not an appropriate forum for issues related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This is a serious misuse of the Court and threatens to undermine its integrity and the integrity of international law.”
(As if the integrity of international law hasn’t already been undermined? S. K.)
“Israel is currently barred from participating in United Nations Geneva-based regional groups (although Israel is now a member of the New York-based UN regional group) an Israeli judge cannot be elected to the court, nor can the State of Israel even participate in the voting for the makeup of the court.
“According to the Court’s web site, only states can appear before the ICJ. The Court, in turn, can hear and rule on a dispute only if the states concerned have accepted its jurisdiction. ….
“…the very wording of the General Assembly resolution is politically charged and extremely prejudicial, reflecting the motivation of the resolution’s sponsors and supporters. The security barrier is called a “wall,” Israel, the “occupying Power,” and the West Bank referred to as “Occupied Palestinian Territory.” There is no mention of Israel’s reasons for constructing the security fence orof Palestinian terrorism - factors that the Court must consider for a fair opinion.
“Moreover, while the ICJ statute allows for UN bodies to refer issues to the ICJ for advisory opinions, disputes are heard by the ICJ only if the principal countries accept the jurisdiction of the ICJ. Given the contentious nature of this dispute, and the fact that Israel has not accepted to jurisdiction of the ICJ to rule on this matter, an advisory opinion on the security fence could be considered a contravention of the Court’s established principles of jurisdiction and could set a precedent for its involvement in other political conflicts.”
July 8th, 2007 at 10:25 am
John wrote: “The specific route of the wall was found not to be justified…”>>>>>
You show your own bias here. You know that only 5% or so of the barrier is a wall, mostly in high-density cities where snipers are known to shoot at Jews. Why do you say “wall” when the vast majority of the barrier is a “fence?” Your own hatred and bias is coming through loud and clear.
John: “Israel did not participate in the entire proceeding at all, showing its true colors from the outset in having no interest in meeting their “obligations under the applicable international humanitarian law and human rights instruments.”
Maybe because they knew it would be the show trial that it was.
July 8th, 2007 at 11:01 am
you are like the man who say, “My mind is made up, don’t confuse me with the facts.””
No, Steve. It’s the Court’s mind that is made up. They heard all these arguments, every one of them. They were not convinced. It’s over.
July 8th, 2007 at 11:16 am
“But for what was the Aryan population in need of protection from the Jews?”
Are you suggesting that the Nazis threw the Jews into a ghetto and walled them in for a trumped-up pretext? Duh. Yes they did. And the height of their cynicism was that they blamed the victims for what they themselves were causing. Was there disease and pestilence inside the Warsaw Ghetto? Yes. How did this public health crisis arise? Because the Nazis had put 400,000 poor people into a closed area with only 27,000 apartments. Quarantine wasn’t needed before they put them in there, but it sure was afterward. That was the big lie.
Now what about the Israeli security fence? Are there suicide bombers in Palestine? Yes. How did this happen? The first suicide bombing took place about three years after the occupation began. So this is the height of the Israeli cynicism, that they too are blaming the victims of their occupation for terrorism against Israelis which is in direct response to the Israeli occupation. The so-called security barrier is only necessary because of the occupation to begin with, just as the wall around the Warsaw Ghetto was only necessary to serve as a quarantine barrier because the creation of the ghetto had created a public health problem. That is the big lie.
July 8th, 2007 at 11:41 am
Are you suggesting that the Nazis threw the Jews into a ghetto and walled them in for a trumped-up pretext? Duh.
We can probably say with some confidence that the purpose of this big lie - that the Jewish Ghetto was created out of concerns for threats against public health and security - was because Hitler wanted to get around the Geneva Conventions of 1929, which were not worded as tightly as those of 1949.
http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList304/0AE55E4864C99EF5C1256B66005B22C2
July 8th, 2007 at 11:45 am
“The first suicide bombing took place about three years after the occupation began. So this is the height of the Israeli cynicism, that they too are blaming the victims of their occupation for terrorism against Israelis which is in direct response to the Israeli occupation.”
Three years after the 1967 Six Day war would have been 1970.
I believe the first suicide bombing in Israel was April 6, 1994 - Eight people were killed in a car-bomb attack on a bus in the center of Afula. HAMAS claimed responsibility for the attack.
Your argument fails John because you know and I know Islamic terrorism against innocent Jews in Israel predated 1967. Right or wrong? There was no so-called occupation prior to June 1967 was there? Why all the terrorism? And it would appear you justify suicide bombings?
July 8th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
Steve:
Fence vs.- wall:
Who cares? Who cares if it was laser-beams or a marginal line of chimpanzees flinging fecies?
All would be (defensive) security measures — intended to protect civilians, period.
John:
The ICJ objects to this barrier not because of its intent. It objects to the wall (or fence) because such delineates borders. Those borders are not recognized by the ICJ. However, those borders are the sole jurisdiction of the Security Counsel and its jurisdiction should have ended with S.C. 242. This is because national borders can not and should not be subject to modification upon any whim. Supposed the governments controlling the Security Counsel were to change? What’s to stop a new Security Counsel from passing another resolution, say, relocating the state of Israel into the Gobi desert? Ridiculous.
The same could happen to any country’s national borders.
Bottom line . .
The United Nations sucks.
The ICJ sucks even worse.
Anyone who thinks the U.N. does the world a favor can buy some Iraqi swamp-land from me. The more power and authority this exec. committee for third-world dictators is given, the closer to certain (possibly irreversible) doom we all are creeping.
July 8th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
Isador wrote: “You are not going far with the American history. All true and more but not relevant to 2007.”
American history is relevant to me Isador. White Europeans overspread the north American continent by virtue of the doctrine of Manifest Destiny, ethnically cleansing the native inhabitants, dispossessing them of their ancient lands.
Manifest Destiny was a phrase that expressed the belief that the United States was destined to expand from the Atlantic seaboard to the Pacific Ocean; it has also been used to advocate for or justify other territorial acquisitions.
The phrase was coined in 1845 by journalist John L. O’Sullivan.
To O’ Sullivan and many Americans, “the claim is by the right of our manifest destiny to overspread and to possess the whole of the continent which Providence has given us for the development of the great experiment of liberty and federated self-government entrusted to us.”
O’Sullivan believed that God (”Providence”) had given the United States a mission to spread republican democracy (”the great experiment of liberty”) throughout North America.
Manifest Destiny had serious consequences for American Indians
White Europeans, unlike the Jews had no historic connection to North America, yet the United States is in the forefront of this effort to deprive the Jews of a tiny piece of land in the Middle East; in the forefront of establishing a Palestinian Muslim terrorist state in the Holy Land; in the forefront of the forced removal of Jews from their homes and property.
I think American history of conquest, ethnic cleansings and sheer theft are indeed relevant to this discussion in the even America is in the forefront of this injustice.
July 8th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
The ICJ objects to this barrier not because of its intent. It objects to the wall (or fence) because such delineates borders.
No, the Fourth GC allows for constructions within occupied territories if they are for “military exigencies, for national security, or public order.” They ruled that the specific route of the wall did not meet those criteria.
July 8th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
you know and I know Islamic terrorism against innocent Jews in Israel predated 1967. Right or wrong? There was no so-called occupation prior to June 1967 was there? Why all the terrorism?
There was no suicide terrorism in Israel until after the occupation. The so-called security fence is purportedly to protect Israelis from suicide terrorism.
And it would appear you justify suicide bombings?
You have a very nasty habit of putting words in people’s mouths. Grow up.
July 8th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Maybe because they knew it would be the show trial that it was.
No doubt. Anyway, too late now.
July 8th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
Reform Reflections: Israel - not a State of all its citizens
By RABBI ERIC H. YOFFIE
Should Israel be a “state of all its citizens”? More and more people seem to think so.
Rabbi Yoffie is an ultra-lefitst Jew who believes in the end to the settlement enterprise and a two state solution. I found this comment interesting:
http://www.blogcentral.jpost.com/index.php?cat_id=8&blog_id=72&blog_post_id=1286
3. As a Reformative Jew (belonging to Reform and Conservative shuls) and a Zionist, I find Rabbi Yoffee’s remarks long on criticisms and short on solutions. While I have problems with settlements, I am not sure how putting an end to settlement activities contributes to “maintaining a secure majority…[and] assures that majority.” that is a bit of lazy thinking. The territories are disputed. The Arabs attacked Israel. The Arabs lost the land as a result of their failed aggression. History is relatively unprecidented with victors returing land for peace. For those who don’t see that the Palestinians have declared a relentless war in perpetuity against the Israelis, they will never understand the fact that the territories are disputed and belong to those who control them in the absence of a peace agreement. You can’t keep up Jihad for over 60 years and loose and then cry foul, when you are held accountable for your wrecklessness. This is what Rabbi Yoffee fails to realize. As long as Israeli Arabs are sympathetic to the enemies of Israel, Israel must protect itself. Rabbi Yoffee is mixing apples and oranges by putting the two in the same context.
July 8th, 2007 at 12:23 pm
“Three years after the 1967 Six Day war would have been 1970…I believe the first suicide bombing in Israel was April 6, 1994 - Eight people were killed in a car-bomb attack on a bus in the center of Afula. HAMAS claimed responsibility for the attack.”
No.
“In 1972 in the hall of the Lod airport in Tel Aviv, Israel, three Japanese used grenades and automatic rifles to kill 26 people and wound more than a hundred.[citation needed] The group belonged to the Japanese Red Army (JRA) a terrorist organization created in 1969 and allied to the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP). Until then, no group involved in terrorism had conducted such a suicide operation in Israel.”
Five years after the Occupation / Kibush began.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bomber
July 8th, 2007 at 12:40 pm
Had Native Americans behaved like these beings, U.S. government instead of expelling them, would have exterminated them; the entire race.
Oh, they did, burning houses, torturing and killing men, killing women and children, and kidnapping them too.
And the U.S. government exterminated millions of them, call it democide or near-genocide or what-have-you. “The only good Indian is a dead Indian.”
July 8th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
Why do you say “wall” when the vast majority of the barrier is a “fence?”
Do you not get the news where you live? That’s what The International Court of Justice in the Hague called it, so looks like you’re the one whose bias is showing. The ICJ didn’t buy the self-serving fence rhetoric. See esp. p. 31
“82. According to the description in the report and the Written Statement of the
Secretary-General, the works planned or completed have resulted or will result in a complex consisting essentially of:
(1) a fence with electronic sensors;
(2) a ditch (up to 4 metres deep);
(3) a two-lane asphalt patrol road;
(4) a trace road (a strip of sand smoothed to detect footprints) running parallel to the fence;
(5) a stack of six coils of barbed wire marking the perimeter of the complex.
The complex has a width of 50 to 70 metres, increasing to as much as 100 metres in
some places. “Depth barriers” may be added to these works.”
It’s not just the height, it’s the depth, and particularly the route that is illegal, whether you call it a barrier, a wall, a screen, a partition, a curtain, a barricade, a checkpoint, a fence, or a schmentz.
“In June 2002, the government of Israel decided to erect a physical barrier to separate Israel and the West Bank in order to prevent the uncontrolled entry of Palestinians into Israel . In most areas, the barrier is comprised of an electronic fence with dirt paths, barbed-wire fences, and trenches on both sides, at an average width of 60 meters. In some areas, a wall six to eight meters high has been erected in place of the barrier system.” - B’Tselem
July 8th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
Oh, they did, burning houses, torturing and killing men, killing women and children, and kidnapping them too.
And the U.S. government exterminated millions of them>>>>>
It seems to me there is this idea of “moral authority.” For instance, in some areas I pretty much fall silent because of my own poor history. You know what I mean? I don’t have such a virtuous past when it comes to relations with the opposite sex, so you don’t see me out there lecturing and condemning people for their foibles in this area.
Otherwise, you could rightly call me a hypocrite, right?
OK. Given America’s deplorable history with respect to Native Americans, Blacks and other minorities, what gives the U.S. the moral authority to lecture tiny Israel?
July 8th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
At first, I did not know where to stand on this. Most on the right in Israel opposed this fence, saying it would become a defacto border, something Israel’s Supreme Court apparently outright rejects, as do I. This thing is only temporary. But it appears to have ended the suicide bombings for the most part.
I say good to all of this below. Good!
(1) a fence with electronic sensors;
(2) a ditch (up to 4 metres deep);
(3) a two-lane asphalt patrol road;
(4) a trace road (a strip of sand smoothed to detect footprints) running parallel to the fence;
(5) a stack of six coils of barbed wire marking the perimeter of the complex.
The complex has a width of 50 to 70 metres, increasing to as much as 100 metres in
some places. “Depth barriers” may be added to these works.”
It’s not just the height, it’s the depth, and particularly the route that is illegal, whether you call it a barrier, a wall, a screen, a partition, a curtain, a barricade, a checkpoint, a fence, or a schmentz.
“In June 2002, the government of Israel decided to erect a physical barrier to separate Israel and the West Bank in order to prevent the uncontrolled entry of Palestinians into Israel . In most areas, the barrier is comprised of an electronic fence with dirt paths, barbed-wire fences, and trenches on both sides, at an average width of 60 meters. In some areas, a wall six to eight meters high has been erected in place of the barrier system.” - B’Tselem
July 8th, 2007 at 1:36 pm
http://www.blogcentral.jpost.com/index.php?cat_id=8&blog_id=72&blog_post_id=1286
11. (Rabbi) Joffee should not worry his head about the Arabs in Israel. As a matter of fact they are treated quite daintily. When precisely was the last time (or the first) that tens of thousands of Arabs were RIPPED from their (illegal) homes to make way for ‘the other’? As a matter of historical fact this did happen to Jews while they were living for decades in their LEGAL homes in Gush Katif.
Also, Arabs enter EVERY sphere of life in Israel. They receive high level university degrees (even women covered in the veil!)live in beautiful homes, are members of the Knesset, visit enemy countries, are judges, freely scream jihad from their mosques, etc etc.
It is absurd AND dangerous to make the world believe that the Arabs are persecuted in Israel. Leave that job to our enemies, we have enough of them who will opine over the Arab’s ‘plight’. In any case, they are the FREEST Arabs in the entire middle east, and are not hunted down like Jewish nationalists.
Therefore, if Joffee really cares about our homeland he should get his facts straight and stop persecuting Zionists who wish to settle their homeland. This right to ’settlement’ was not only promised by all authoritative bodies before 1948, but is also where Jews have lived for thousands of years.
Adina Kutnicki, US, Jul 8 7:07PM
July 8th, 2007 at 3:20 pm
“…what gives the U.S. the moral authority to lecture tiny Israel?”
Israel did. Israel gave the U.S. (and the rest of the world) the moral authority as well as the legal obligation when it signed the U.N. Charter, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the Fourth Geneva Convention.
July 8th, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Steve:
While the Native Americans were dealt a severe injustice, it has no meaning in comparison with decisions being made today. If you were to line up 1,000 Americans and ask each one in turn:
“If the USA had it to do over again in 2007, should the Indians be removed from their native lands and put in reservations?”
Maybe a handfull of crazies or pot-sturrers might say yes. About 995 would say certainly not. So what is your point, that the Americans of today should have collective hereditary guilt? The same is true regarding reperations for Black offspring of slaves. Do we in 2007 have to pay them? By dragging the Indians into the discussion you are creating a moral equivilancy between long dead Americans and now living Israelis. Jews loose that comparison.
John:
“The ICJ objects to this barrier not because of its intent. It objects to the wall (or fence) because such delineates borders.
No, the Fourth GC allows for constructions within occupied territories if they are for “military exigencies, for national security, or public order.” They ruled that the specific route of the wall did not meet those criteria.”
I don’t give a whip what the rationalization of the ICJ was. At the end of the day, if they beleived that the land being fenced off belonged to Israel, they would have nothing to say about it ~~ if the Israelis put up a fence, a wall or a series of drive-in movie screens and showed the Palestinian-Arabs John Wayne movies.
July 8th, 2007 at 4:15 pm
At the end of the day, if they beleived that the land being fenced off belonged to Israel, they would have nothing to say about it.
That’s certainly true.
July 8th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
John wrote: Israel did. Israel gave the U.S. (and the rest of the world) the moral authority as well as the legal obligation when it signed the U.N. Charter, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the Fourth Geneva Convention. >>>
Israel has done a lot of stupid anti-Torah things. I don’t recognize Israel’s stupidity. I would never have signed the U.N. Charter, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the Fourth Geneva Convention. Never. John put something before saying, “sign.” I would tell John to stick his pen where the sun don’t shine.
These are John-like people that coerced Israel to sign these terrible things. Johns are not to be trusted.
July 8th, 2007 at 4:30 pm
Isador wrote: “So what is your point, that the Americans of today should have collective hereditary guilt?”
Absolutely! Yes!
July 8th, 2007 at 4:32 pm
The same is true regarding reperations for Black offspring of slaves. >>>>
No. Blacks have been sufficiently compensated. MORE THAN COMPENSATED.
July 8th, 2007 at 4:36 pm
Isador: While the Native Americans were dealt a severe injustice….So what is your point, that the Americans of today should have collective hereditary guilt? >>>
Isador. I cannot believe you. Of course Americans today should have collective hereditary guilt. Americans did this to these people. How have we addressed this enormity Isador? We stole their land Isador. Come on Isador! We stole their land.
July 8th, 2007 at 6:37 pm
Steve:
1. Native Americans themselves beleived that people do not own land, that the land owns the people.
2. My ancestors had nothing to do with that injustice. The same is true for about 99% of today’s Americans. For the 1% who are “Blue-Bloods” only a small percentage of their ansestors were directly involved. I therefore see no practical difference between that concept and the reperations to Blacks.
3. I do not beleive in Hereditary Guilt. If I did, I would surely feel guilty for the death of Jesus too!!
July 8th, 2007 at 6:38 pm
These are John-like people that coerced Israel to sign these terrible things.
Israel is welcome to w/draw I suppose. They might as well.
We stole their land Isador. Come on Isador! We stole their land.
“There were just a very few savages here when we arrived. They could have lived peacefully but chose to attack us. God intended white Europeans to have the land. The Indians had done nothing with it. They need to get over it.” Does this sound familiar? Yes, you are finally right, Steve. The Indians and the Palestinians are both “the indige.” I don’t know why you can’t see the injustice in the case of the Palestinians. Was the land supposed to remain vacant for 2,000 years while the Jews were not living in it and then “spew out” the Arabs before you? Were the Palestinians supposed to leave when the Zionists arrived and said they were lusting after their land? How can you possibly believe God would sanction such an injustice? And then to sanction creating 750,000 refugees, the refusal to allow their return, and the confiscation of their land? Come on, Steve. You know God does not work that way. You stole their land. You are still stealing it!
July 9th, 2007 at 5:15 am
Steve and John:
Now you are both feeding off each other’s illusions. It was just a matter of time before this was bound to happen.
1. The Israelis are no moral equivilant to the American Indians. They are a closer comparison to the East Indians. Jews were scattered throughout the Mid East, where they had resided, many for thousands of years. Were there white Euros living in Minniapolis? Or Monreeal? No.
2. The fact that Jews had been legally barred from moving to or buying property in Palestine, on-and-off (mainly on) for thousands of years can not be discounted away. There is no equivilant example pertaining to the Native Americans. Normally, if property is stolen, no amount of interum owners can replace its rightful owners as legitimate (legal) owners. This premise is stretched to its limits with the Palestine question. Nonetheless, the world cooperated with the continued displacement of the rightful heirs for thousands of years.
3. Jerusalem is the religious capitol of the Jewish nation. Philadelphia was NOT the eternal spiritual capitol of the white Euro settlers.
The Catholics (a.k.a. the “First Reich” who originally killed the Jews and banned them from return) maintain a spiritual capitol in Vatican City. The Muslims maintain two such places, Mecca and Medina and have made false claims on a third, guess where? Jerusalem. John: Please explain to me where in EUROPE the American Indians claim to have a spiritual capitol?
Lastly, legal ownership of the Jewish National Homeland was legally RESTORED to the Jewish people in the same set of international treaties which created most every single Arab nation after WW1. So, a second theft of that property was committed by the international community, this time in the 20th century. Most of that property is today still Jordan. When Jordan was established, the Muslims living there were made citizens and the Jews were specifically singled out for denial of citizenship. Where John is the moral equivilancy involving the story of the Native American? Of course, there is none.
July 9th, 2007 at 5:35 am
John wrote: “Yes, you are finally right, Steve. The Indians and the Palestinians are both “the indige.” I don’t know why you can’t see the injustice in the case of the Palestinians.”
John, I think you are missing my larger point. My larger point is that the U.S. has no moral authority to be an “honest broker” with the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. None. Zero.
July 9th, 2007 at 5:49 am
Isador wrote: 1. The Israelis are no moral equivilant to the American Indians. They are a closer comparison to the East Indians. Jews were scattered throughout the Mid East, where they had resided, many for thousands of years. Were there white Euros living in Minniapolis? Or Monreeal? No.
2. The fact that Jews had been legally barred from moving to or buying property in Palestine, on-and-off (mainly on) for thousands of years can not be discounted away….the world cooperated with the continued displacement of the rightful heirs for thousands of years.
3. Jerusalem is the religious capitol of the Jewish nation. Philadelphia was NOT the eternal spiritual capitol of the white Euro settlers.>>>>
Isador,
I cannot agree with you more. For me, the Jews title to the land is beyond dispute. John and other who dispute this truth are p-**-ng in the wind.
My only point is, and you made it better, “the world cooperated with the continued displacement of the rightful heirs for thousands of years.” I do not however consider Arabs the rightful heirs of “Palestine,” the land of Israel. The Jews are the rightful heirs. The Arabs are squatters on Jewish land.
Here in Florida, for twenty six years now, I’ve lived on what was formally Native American, Seminole Indian land. Someone comes to take my property, yes, I’m going to fight for ownership. The point is, Americans have no moral right to lecture Israel about displacement. This would include John who also is living on formerly Native American land.
July 9th, 2007 at 5:57 am
“Where John is the moral equivilancy involving the story of the Native American?”
But for the fact that the olim were not the representatives of a single European imperial power, they were in every other respect standard issue white colonials.
They were in fact colonist-wannabes in that respect. The decision was made early on that for the project to succeed they needed the sponsorship of one (or more) of the Great Powers. And so the idea was to ingratiate themselves to the Ottomans or to the British in the role of proxy ambassadors and representatives of European civilization in that oriental wilderness filled with savages. There is even a famous line in Judenstaat to that effect, though I don’t have it to hand. White man’s burden kind of thing. Typical European colonialist thinking. They clearly saw themselves as European colonists and aspired to that role.
So, the parallels are obvious. The Arabs - the indigenes - were on the shore when the first boatload of settler arrived, just like the Indians. Kind of amazing I would even have to explain to you something so glaringly obvious.
Du-uh-uh.
July 9th, 2007 at 6:51 am
Steve, let’s go back to the issue the Yishuv’s claim of manifest (revealed) destiny to all of the Holy Land.
As to the Biblical record, the support is too vague as to be practical for determining national boundaries. The Gen. 15:18 text is thought to reflect a back-reading of the Davidic boundaries onto the patriarchal stories. Furthermore, the texts themselves are not in the correct form for ancient Near Eastern land deeds and were therefore not intended as such. The point was the covenant with the Almighty. Land and offspring were the two essential elements for survival, and these are seen as being Divine gifts.
Then there is the talmudic support. Rambam refers to living in the land in Mishneh Torah but omits conquest (kibush) or settlement (yishuv) from the canonical list of 613 mitzvot.
Ramban in good rabbinical fashion “builds a fence around” Rambam: aliyah is not only a mitzvah, so is kibush and yishuv, and not only that but it is a mitzvah for every succeeding generation and that not one inch of the land should be left desolate or in the hands of goyim.
Now bear in mind that both Rambam and Ramban were Spanish Jews who spent most of their lives in Spain. Ramban was expelled in 1263 and wandered a bit before going to Jerusalem shortly before dying. He complained that there were only two Jews living there at the time. Rambam lived in Spain, Morocco, and Egypt and only briefly visited Eretz Yisrael. In fact, isn’t it likely that what Rambam had in mind was that aliyah was a pilgrimage, something like the Muslim hajj, a symbolic conquest if you will? Ramban was from a school of exegesis which tended to extreme literalism and rigidity in interpreting previous commentators like Rambam. So isn’t it likely that he radicalized Rambam’s teaching on the subject and included it among the mitzvot when Rambam himself had not? This seems the likely situation to me considering the fact that Ramban grieved over having to leave Spain his whole life and probably never would have left if he had not been forced out. His family never immigrated. Rambam never immigrated nor his sons. In fact, considering this was supposed to be a mitzvah for “every succeeding generation” it’s odd that hardly any Jews immigrated when they were permitted back into the land over the two thousand year Diaspora. And why does God make the mitzvah apply to “every succeeding generation” if it is a mitzvah impossible to fulfill?
I’m obviously not a rabbi, but just a simple-minded pshat reading of the Talmudic authorities would much more likely that aliyah (at least beyond pilgrimage), kibush, and yishuv are not mitzvot. From the Biblical and rabbinical record the most I can see is perhaps the teaching that if possible Jews should live “in” the land. But that is far from saying you should take it away from the others or that you should take all of it.
Steve, you are on extremely weak ground in claiming God has given Jews all of the land and that Arabs live there only at your pleasure. This is not what the Bible or the rabbis really say. The promises in the Torah are of a very general nature, and the interpretation in the gemara is non-supportive. The idea came from somewhere else, don’t you think?
July 9th, 2007 at 7:20 am
They were in fact colonist-wannabes in that respect. The decision was made early on that for the project to succeed they needed the sponsorship of one (or more) of the Great Powers. >>>>
Yes. I am aware of all this. You’ve got to keep in mind, many of these early Zionists, later Labor Zionists, were atheists, socialists, secular men of the Enlightenment. They did not act our of religious convictions and motives. By and large, these men were blind to the fact that they were accomplishing God’s redemption. This is why they used terms like “colonization.” How can you colonize your own land?
Isa 42:16 “I will lead the blind by a way they do not know, In paths they do not know I will guide them. I will make darkness into light before them And rugged places into plains. These are the things I will do, And I will not leave them undone.”
Many Orthodox and Hasidic rabbis frowned on the Zionist enterprise; many condemned it.
To me this demonstrates how out of touch religious Judaism was in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Not all but much. How can any religious Jew that believes God is omnipotent, deny that God brought about this great work? Does a nation come into existence without God working it about? Is God a God who is unaware of major world event? Major world events pass Him by or take Him by surprise?
And why didn’t God choose largely religious Jews to accomplish His redemption? Why secular atheists by and large? Perhaps this is why Jews like Neturei Karta and others are so angry at the existence of Israel. Maybe they are jealous that God did not choose them to help bring it about; rather He chose largely secular, unbelieving Jews by and large.
July 9th, 2007 at 7:40 am
Redemption of the world (tikkun olam) I can relate to, but in my thinking your concept of redemption is bizarrely fixated upon the most crudely un-spiritual aspect of the offer of covenant relationship: land. And in the process, God’s real purpose has been overlooked. This is not what it was all about, and in any case God doesn’t go backwards and make retro-moves or send His people out to do re-enactments like Civl War buffs. Everything that has happened from 1880 to present looks more like the unleashing of hell than redemption. I don’t think God has had a thing to do with it. He is concerned about the innocent.
July 9th, 2007 at 7:42 am
And why does God make the mitzvah apply to “every succeeding generation”>>>
You see John, I am a very independent Jew. I do not agree with our rabbis on this. I do not believe it was a mitzvah in every generation to immigrate to the Holy Land. Even though Jews have prayed over the centuries, “Next year in Jerusalem,” clearly it was more of a curse than a blessing to immigrate before God permitted mass-immigration. I have read of more Jews dying of disease in Israel over the centuries.
God told the prophets that the land would lie desolate. It would be cursed. I’m sure you’ve heard of Mark Twain’s “Innocents Abroad.”
Deu 29:22 “Now the generation to come, your sons who rise up after you and the foreigner who comes from a distant land, when they see the plagues of the land and the diseases with which the LORD has afflicted it, will say,
‘All its land is brimstone and salt, a burning waste, unsown and unproductive, and no grass grows in it, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in His anger and in His wrath.’
“All the nations will say, ‘Why has the LORD done thus to this land? Why this great outburst of anger?’
“Then men will say, ‘Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt.
‘They went and served other gods and worshiped them, gods whom they have not known and whom He had not allotted to them.
‘Therefore, the anger of the LORD burned against that land, to bring upon it every curse which is written in this book;
and the LORD uprooted them from their land in anger and in fury and in great wrath, and cast them into another land, as {it is} this day.’
“The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law.
July 9th, 2007 at 7:54 am
“Redemption of the world (tikkun olam) I can relate to, but in my thinking your concept of redemption is bizarrely fixated upon the most crudely un-spiritual aspect of the offer of covenant relationship: land.”
John, “Be joyful with Jerusalem and rejoice for her, all you who love her.”
Isa 44:23 Shout for joy, O heavens, for the LORD has done it! Shout joyfully, you lower parts of the earth; Break forth into a shout of joy, you mountains, O forest, and every tree in it; For the LORD has redeemed Jacob And in Israel He shows forth His glory.
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone…
Isa 43:1 But now, thus says the LORD, your Creator, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel, “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name; you are Mine!
“When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they will not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, Nor will the flame burn you.
“For I am the LORD your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in your place.
“Since you are precious in My sight, Since you are honored and I love you, I will give other men in your place and other peoples in exchange for your life.
“Do not fear, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, And gather you from the west.
“I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’ And to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’ Bring My sons from afar And My daughters from the ends of the earth,
Everyone who is called by My name, And whom I have created for My glory, Whom I have formed, even whom I have made.”
Bring out the people who are blind, even though they have eyes, And the deaf, even though they have ears.
Isa 66:7 “Before she travailed, she brought forth; Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy.
“Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons.
“Shall I bring to the point of birth and not give delivery?” says the LORD. “Or shall I who gives delivery shut {the womb?}” says your God.
“Be joyful with Jerusalem and rejoice for her, all you who love her; Be exceedingly glad with her, all you who mourn over her,
That you may nurse and be satisfied with her comforting breasts, That you may suck and be delighted with her bountiful bosom.”
July 9th, 2007 at 8:00 am
You wrote: “As to the Biblical record, the support is too vague as to be practical for determining national boundaries. The Gen. 15:18 text is thought to reflect a back-reading of the Davidic boundaries onto the patriarchal stories.”
Num 34:1 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
“Command the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘When you enter the land of Canaan, this is the land that shall fall to you as an inheritance, even the land of Canaan according to its borders.
‘Your southern sector shall extend from the wilderness of Zin along the side of Edom, and your southern border shall extend from the end of the Salt Sea eastward.
‘Then your border shall turn direction from the south to the ascent of Akrabbim and continue to Zin, and its termination shall be to the south of Kadesh-barnea; and it shall reach Hazaraddar and continue to Azmon.
‘The border shall turn direction from Azmon to the brook of Egypt, and its termination shall be at the sea.
‘As for the western border, you shall have the Great Sea, that is, its coastline; this shall be your west border.
‘And this shall be your north border: you shall draw your border line from the Great Sea to Mount Hor……
it goes on John, to describe Israel’s borders. You can also find this in the fifteenth chapter of the book of Joshua)
July 9th, 2007 at 8:12 am
No need to quote at length. What Second Isaiah was writing about was not simply back-to-Zion. There was no point in going back (in any sense of the word) simply to rebuild and to re-create what God had destroyed through the Babylonians. That is not redemption. The point was to go forward to become “a light unto the nations.”
July 9th, 2007 at 8:17 am
John wrote:
“So, the parallels are obvious. The Arabs - the indigenes - were on the shore when the first boatload of settler arrived, just like the Indians. Kind of amazing I would even have to explain to you something so glaringly obvious.
Du-uh-uh.”
What is amazing is that someone with your vast educational background and obvious intellect can (would indulge by) rationalize(ing) around any impediment.
The only thing which created a “minority” of Arabs in Palestine was the M.E. minority Jews claiming their country, after it had been twice legally mandated in the 20th century. Otherwise, Jews are outnumbered about 80/1, far worse then Blacks in the USA were ever outnumbered.
The second legal creation of Israel (in 1947) was supposed to end (once and for all) the ongoing war against the Jews. “Kind of amazing I would even have to explain to you something so glaringly obvious.
Du-uh-uh.”
Speaking of obvious, it is obvious that the war continues up to and including this day. If there were nopt something especially holy about Jews, they would not have spent the last 2,000+ years running for their lives. The running was supposed to stop in Israel.
BTW:
John: Please explain to me why Princess Diana has TV specials and newly released books and politicians speaking of her and so forth, while Mother Theresa (who died within 2 weeks of Diana) is a foregone memory fragment???
The answer is actually the solution to the John Baker puzzle in general.
Because no one gives a shit-stain about Mother Theresa. Diana, who married for glory (wrongly) and left B.P. with millions of royal-pounds was seen (by the general public) as the ‘downtrodden’ and ‘oppressed’. The fact that her death is clouded in a mystery involving an Arab boyfriend is also a contributing factor. No one (of course) mentions that she was not wearing a seat-belt while her druken driver was going 90+ through the streets of Paris. Or, that she had more cock-ends then week-ends.
This is the same factor driving the world’s admiration and support for the “Arab cause”. Poor little oil-rich boys with 4-wives. Why, their just like the American Indians!
Wake up and smell the fungus.
July 9th, 2007 at 9:15 am
“Isaiah was writing about was not simply back-to-Zion. There was no point in going back (in any sense of the word) simply to rebuild and to re-create what God had destroyed through the Babylonians. That is not redemption. The point was to go forward to become “a light unto the nations.” >>>
John, I am not a religious Jew. I find much wisdom in the writings of our prophets. The regathering of the Jews back into our ancient homeland is a central theme in our prophets. It’s not to simply rebuild and re-create what God had destroyed through the Babylonians but to lay the groundwork for God’s future earthly kingdom in the city of David.
In that day, the oppressor of the earth (America) will be no more. The hammer of the whole earth will be cut off and broken! The oppressed of the earth will take up this taunt against the “great satan,” the king of Babylon:
“How the oppressor has ceased,
And how fury has ceased!
The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked,
The scepter of rulers
Which used to strike the peoples in fury with unceasing strokes,
Which subdued the nations in anger with unrestrained persecution.
The whole earth is at rest and quiet.
They break forth into shouts of joy.”
July 9th, 2007 at 9:19 am
John: Please explain to me why Princess Diana has TV specials and newly released books and politicians speaking of her and so forth, while Mother Theresa (who died within 2 weeks of Diana) is a foregone memory fragment???
The answer is actually the solution to the John Baker puzzle in general.
Because no one gives a shit-stain about Mother Theresa. Diana, who married for glory (wrongly) and left B.P. with millions of royal-pounds was seen (by the general public) as the ‘downtrodden’ and ‘oppressed’. The fact that her death is clouded in a mystery involving an Arab boyfriend is also a contributing factor. No one (of course) mentions that she was not wearing a seat-belt while her druken driver was going 90+ through the streets of Paris. Or, that she had more cock-ends then week-ends.
This is the same factor driving the world’s admiration and support for the “Arab cause”. Poor little oil-rich boys with 4-wives. Why, their just like the American Indians!
Wake up and smell the fungus.”>>>
Intersting point.
July 9th, 2007 at 9:58 am
John,
Here you will find an article to your liking:
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070702_a_declaration_of_independence_from_israel/
July 9th, 2007 at 10:01 am
Forward from an email I received
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dear friends,
Today’s New York Times carries a review of a film called “Hot House” that goes inside Israeli prisons and examines the lives of Palestinian prisoners. We’re not recommending the film or the review. But we do want to share our feelings with you about the beaming female face that adorns the article.
The film is produced by HBO. So it’s presumably HBO’s publicity department that was responsible for creating and distributing a glamor-style photograph of a smiling, contented-looking young woman in her twenties to promote the movie.
That female is our child’s murderer. She was sentenced to sixteen life sentences or 320 years which she is serving in an Israeli jail. Fifteen people were killed and more than a hundred maimed and injured by the actions of this attractive person and her associates. The background is: http://www.kerenmalki.org:80/Press/Press_Listing.htm
Neither the New York Times nor HBO are likely to give even a moment’s attention to the victims of the barbarians who destroyed the Sbarro restaurant in Jerusalem and the lives of so many victims. So we would be grateful if you would pass along this link to some pictures of our daughter whose name was Malki. She was unable to reach her twenties - Hamas saw to that.
Though she was only fifteen years old when her life was stolen from her and from us, we think Malki was a beautiful young woman, living a beautiful life. We ask your help so that other people - far fewer than the number who will see the New York Times, of course - can know about her. Please ask your friends to look at the pictures - some of the very few we have - of our murdered daughter.
And remind them of what the woman in the Israeli prison - the woman smiling so happily in the New York Times - said last year. ” I’m not sorry for what I did. We’ll become free from the occupation and then I will be free from prison.”
With so many voices demanding that Israel release its terrorist prisoners, small wonder she’s smiling.
With greetings from Jerusalem,
Frimet and Arnold Roth
On behalf of Keren Malki
July 9th, 2007 at 10:50 am
Steve, thanks for the Hedges article. Yes, I had already seen it.
It looks like when you say your claims are based on the Bible you mean essentially the prophets or Isaiah specifically. The verses in that part of Isaiah have been used for centuries by all sorts of people beginning new adventures and enterprises and explorations. Notably, they were looked to by the Europeans who came to America in the 17th and 18th centuries. America was thought to be Zion, which is why Salem in Massachusetts received its name, short for Jerusalem. So for your particular purposes, the words are far too general to be used as proof-texts. They undoubtedly are meaningful to you vis-a-vis the modern State of Israel, just as they were meaningful to the Englishmen who came to our shores two hundred years ago. But “meaningful” does not mean “mandate.” Just because these words seem applicable or meaningful to a situation do not by any means prove that through the words God is showing his sanction or approval or imperative for the issue at hand. Or so it would seem to me, as someone who shares that text with you. What they talk about is returning to the Lord; not to a piece of ground. There are far too many people in Israel who are solely focussed on the real estate to convince me that an “ingathering” is underway, particularly since there are glaring injustices created in the wake of all this.
July 9th, 2007 at 11:03 am
Isidor there are currently about 10,000 Palestinian “terror suspects” being held in Israeli prisons. The 250 who are to be released are mostly car thieves, etc. If I were this woman, I’d be emotional as hell too, but let’s try to remain rational. And what Princess Diana has to do with anything is completely beyond me.
I hope later today to be able to put up here a description of what things were like in 1984 from someone who was there at the time and saw things a little differently than you did. Stand by.
July 9th, 2007 at 11:13 am
Steve said,
” The regathering of the Jews back into our ancient homeland is a central theme in our prophets.”
You are misreading the prophets if you have not picked up on the fact that they are anti-Zion from beginning to end. Those who talked about David and Zion at all warned how God was about to bring about the destruction of Jerusalem, that the king and people should by no means assume that God’s support was unconditional or perpetual. Those few who talked about a remnant, such as Second Isaiah and Jeremiah, talked about re-forging a New Covenant which would be written in the heart. Jeremiah spoke of a “circumcision of the heart.” They by no means were interested in reconstructing buildings or redeveloping land. The re-gathering of a remnant was for the purpose of re-making the people from scratch to be the holy nation God intended. I don’t see that happening, do you? That’s why most commentators have taken these passages to await fulfillment ultimately in the messianic age rather than in time.
July 9th, 2007 at 11:20 am
Notably, they were looked to by the Europeans who came to America in the 17th and 18th centuries. America was thought to be Zion, which is why Salem in Massachusetts received its name, short for Jerusalem.>>>>
John,
I am a literalist. I understand that many Christians have spiritualized and continue to spiritualize the Bible. In other words to many Christians “Israel” is the Christian Church. To me, this is very dangerous dogma.
Your point is also well take that many of the prophecies are so general as to be difficult to interpret (them) speaking of this or that specific event in history.
Consequently, I try to avoid conjecture and supposition. You will not see me theorizing the day or the year the messiah will come to Israel or return depending on your view of messiah. You will not see me positing that the war in Iraq is predicted in our Bible as many do or the 9/11 atrocities can be found in scripture, etc.
I believe the prophets of God and God (if you will) were deliberately vague in many instances for good reason.
Jerusalem is Jerusalem however. Salem, Mass. and Washinton D.C. are not Jerusalem. Israel is Israel. Jacob is Jacob. Jacob is not the Christian church. The regathering of the Jews back into our land for these ‘final’ events in the last days of history — prior to some kind of conflagration of immense proportions — is a central theme of our prophets. As it happened in the days of Noah, the prophets speak of this final earthly judgment prior to the messianic age. You cannot get around it. You cannot miss it. It speaks of the last days as a time when knowledge (perhaps technology?) will vastly increase; when travel will be extensive and perhaps where news will be instantaneous. At no other time in modern history has this become so evident. And of course there is the reconstitution of the Jewish commonwealth. This is a central theme.
There is little doubt in my mind that we are living in the so-called “last days.” However, and this is an important point, the last days might go on for many decades into another generation or so.
Speculation in terms of where we are in terms of final events is futile. Though I am not a Christian, on this I agree with Jesus. He discouraged his disciples from positing that messiah will come at such and such a time and that the final events will occur at such and such a time.
He did say this however:
“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;
so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.”
As I say, I am not a Christian nor do I believe Jesus was a prophet per se but I do believe “its branch has already become tender and it is putting forth its leaves.”
July 9th, 2007 at 11:33 am
John:
A minute ago you responded:
“Intersting point.”.
A minute later you say:
“And what Princess Diana has to do with anything is completely beyond me.”
Of course, as usual with you it is both and neither.
Former Princess Diana is a lab example of how entire populations can be diverted from normal thought patterns due to the mass hypnotic effect of news coverage. The news coverage is, in turn, somewhat dictated by power structures present in the society.
Bottom line. .
People are sheep.
And you kind sir are the sheep herder. Both of you.
July 9th, 2007 at 12:10 pm
You are misreading the prophets if you have not picked up on the fact that they are anti-Zion from beginning to end. Those who talked about David and Zion at all warned how God was about to bring about the destruction of Jerusalem, that the king and people should by no means assume that God’s support was unconditional or perpetual.>>>>>
This is true to a degree in that day. Jeremiah especially warned the people not to place their trust in cultish places and ceremonies like the Temple, as though the temple and the ceremonies attached to it including that sacrificial cult would save the Jews from disaster. And you are right, God’s support was never unconditional as many believed the false prophets were teaching.
“Those few who talked about a remnant, such as Second Isaiah and Jeremiah, talked about re-forging a New Covenant which would be written in the heart. Jeremiah spoke of a “circumcision of the heart.” They by no means were interested in reconstructing buildings or redeveloping land.”
This is not entirely the case. Remember God told Jeremiah to buy a piece of land; a field? Now this was a strange command considering the land would then be worthless because the Jews were going into exile. But God tells the prophet: “Take these deeds, this sealed deed of purchase and this open deed, and put them in an earthenware jar, that they may last a long time.”
‘For thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, “Houses and fields and vineyards will again be bought in this land.’”
“The re-gathering of a remnant was for the purpose of re-making the people from scratch to be the holy nation God intended.”
You don’t see it on your nightly news but there is a remnant, of very fine and dedicated Jews living in Israel and some in Diaspora who will immigrate, that will provide the core of what will become a Holy nation. What you are watching now is the slow dissolution of a corrupt regime in Jerusalem that will eventually be replace with a righteous government. It will take some time to work itself out but this corrupt regime in Jerusalem will not survive. This remnant will be called “oaks of righteousness, The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified. Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins, They will raise up the former devastations; And they will repair the ruined cities, The desolations of many generations.”
>>>>I don’t see that happening, do you? That’s why most commentators have taken these passages to await fulfillment ultimately in the messianic age rather than in time.>>>>
It will happen. Wait for it. Clearly God did not need messiah to plant the people of Israel back in our land. Clearly it is happening before our very eyes, the cursings of Neturei Karta notwithstanding.
July 9th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
Isador wrote: “Former Princess Diana is a lab example of how entire populations can be diverted from normal thought patterns due to the mass hypnotic effect of news coverage. The news coverage is, in turn, somewhat dictated by power structures present in the society.
Bottom line. .
People are sheep.”
I agree Isador. Interesting point. It was I who wrote “interesting point” earlier. You make great analogy here. You are exactly right. Princess Diana is a perfect example of the idolatry prevalent around the world. People make other peoples or things into idols and worship them. Thus it has been the case with the so-called “Palestinian” people. Myths and legends about an oppressed people are prevalent. “An innocent, peaceful and decent people who are oppressed by the evil Jews!”
July 9th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Isidor, here is the e-mail I received from a friend who spent a year in Nablus 1984-85. I had asked him to comment on your statement that things were calm and peaceful in the Occupied Territories back then, “just neighborhoods” as you put it, indicating supposedly that the Palestinians were content:
“Obviously, that’s completely absurd. You know, in the evenings, especially in the summer with the windows open, you could hear rifle shots all the time. When I first arrived, I heard all this rifle fire one night and was petrified. I was ready to head home. It was nothing, just the normal skirmishing between boys and soldiers. Of course, sometimes the kids got killed, etc. I could go on and on about how bad it was, but I wouldn’t know where to start or stop. I had a good friend who was arrested for no reason and imprisoned and tortured for several weeks. His brother was also arrested imprisoned for a few days and roughed up pretty bad. And these guys had no connection to anything, nothing. they were just randomly selected because of the policy of intimidation. The Israelis believed, and believe, that intimidating ALL the population will work to pacify them. What they end up doing, of course, is radicalizing all the population instead of a segment of it.
Everybody knew at the time that it was extremely bad and that there was no way in hell it was going to get better. And they were right, weren’t they? All these people living in camps with open sewers, etc., no employment, living off the dole from UNWRA, imprisoned and tortured routinely — you think that’s good?
I don’t know where this guy you are talking about was living, but I think it may have been on the moon…. I was in NABLUS. He was probably in Israel or in Jerusalem or something. I GUARANTEE you he was not in Nablus — at least not overnight. Peaceful? That is so laughable, if it weren’t tragically blind, you know. Maybe this guy should have talked to the Jewish lawyer (I think there were only two who would accept Pal cases) who tried to defend these friends of mine and endless other Pals in Israeli courts. Most of the diabolical tactics that Israelis are using now were already established by the time I was there in ‘84-5, but things had not deteriorated quite to the point they are at now.”
Isidore said,
“Poor little oil-rich boys with 4-wives. Why, their just like the American Indians!”
Were there oil-sheikhs living in the OT when you were there, Isidore? Because I don’t think there are any there now. Just a lot of people living in grinding poverty. Not that the world is that concerned about them. The world is mostly concerned about itself.
July 9th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
“Remember God told Jeremiah to buy a piece of land; a field?”
Quite correct. He did not tell him to drive out the present owner of the field because He had need of it. Your claim however - in God’s Name! - is that the Jews are entitled to ALL of the land and that anybody who is in their way had better clear off because they are taking possession of what belongs to them. Buying a piece of land is not the same as building a State. Buying a piece of land is not the same as expelling the current residents either. And that is the main thing that convinces me beyond a shadow of doubt that the Lord Almighty had not one thing to do with driving out the Arabs in your path. Israel was built on the wreckage of another people’s fortunes, people who were peacefully living and working the land before the arrival of the Zionists, Muslims and Christians who had done nothing wrong apart from living as non-Jews in a country which certain European Jews coveted. You are in deep, deep denial about Jewish guilt for stealing the land by expelling 750,000 Arabs and refusing the allow them to return to claim their land and still stealing their land as we speak. With every word I have ever heard from your side I hear that deep and terrible guilt crying out between the words of the weak-assed, flimsy, cheap, piss-poor excuses and phony justifications. To associate God with injustice on such an incomprehensible scale is truly blasphemous.
July 9th, 2007 at 12:56 pm
In other words to many Christians “Israel” is the Christian Church. To me, this is very dangerous dogma.
I would agree with that. “Israel” can mean a lot of different things in the Bible. One thing that it does not mean and has no connection with is the modern State of Israel which did not exist before 1948 CE. The name is the same. The ethnic group is somewhat the same. The religion is vastly different than when the northern kingdom named Israel went out of existence and vanished from the face of the earth in 721 BCE. Everything else is different. “Israel” in the Hebrew Bible does not refer to the country of which Ehud Olmert is the Prime Minister and Tzipi Livni is the Foreign Minister. Get your head around that, Steve.
July 9th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
To associate God with injustice on such an incomprehensible scale is truly blasphemous. >>>>
Well I wonder what you think of Joshua’s conquest of the land filled with people who were peacefully living and working the land before the arrival of the Israelitish zionists; Canaanites, Perezites, Girgishites, Hittites, Jebusites, who had done nothing wrong apart from living as non-Jews in a country which certain formerly Egyptian Jews coveted.
By the way, I subscribe to the example the patriarch Abraham set. Remember he bought a burial site from the Eprhron the Hittite. According to expositors, Abraham paid an exorbitant price.
I don’t think Israel has or is confiscating any Arab-owned land without compensation. Most of the land in Israel is state-owned. This is property where there was no title.
July 9th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
Well I wonder what you think of Joshua’s conquest of the land filled with people who were peacefully living and working the land before the arrival of the Israelitish zionists; Canaanites, Perezites, Girgishites, Hittites, Jebusites, who had done nothing wrong apart from living as non-Jews in a country which certain formerly Egyptian Jews coveted.
What I think of it is that it never happened. There is zero evidence to support the story. The archeology does not match the textual record, which is yet another reason why the Bible cannot be used as a way to justify the stealing of land and expulsion of refugees. It never happened, Steve.
July 9th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
Most of the land in Israel is state-owned. This is property where there was no title.
Give me a break.
July 9th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
Most of the land in Israel is state-owned. This is property where there was no title.
Steve, please look on page 86 of the copy of Norman G. Finkelstein’s book that you bought, Image and Reality, and tell us the number of dunums of land that were actually owned by Jews at the end of the war in 1948 vs. the total number of dunums of land that were held by the Israeli state at that point. That will give you an idea of the magnitude of the land theft at that point.
July 9th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
is yet another reason why the Bible cannot be used as a way to justify the stealing of land and expulsion of refugees. >>>>
John,
I do not believe Jews stole any one’s land. We paid for it. If someone was not properly compensated and they can prove they have title, then they should be compensated. Zionists paid lots of money — often overly inflated prices — to mostly absentee land owners for the many acres or dunams of land that we purchased; that we bought. Jewish National Fund was later set up for the purpose of acquiring land.
You are uninformed in your history if you think the Jews were responsible for the Arab flight and refugee problem.
Early on during the Arab invasion, the educated Arab classes, the elites, the intellectuals fled Palestine because at the highest levels, Arabs were unwilling to subordinate personal interest to the general good.
As a consequence, Arab morale in Palestine collapsed causing hundreds of thousands to flee. Palestinian peasants proved no more attached to the land than the educated classes. Rather than stay behind and fight, they followed in the footsteps of their urban brothers and took to the road from the first moments of the hostilities.
The lion’s share of culpability however, for Palestinian collapse and dispersion undoubtedly lies with the ‘educated ones’ whose lack of national sentiment set in train the entire Palestinian exodus. The moment its leading members chose to place their own safety ahead of all other considerations, the exodus became a foregone conclusion. So say reliable and credible historians.
This is not to deny that Israeli forces did on occasion expel Palestinians but this accounted for only a small fraction of the total exodus and it occurred not within the framework of a premeditated plan but in the heat of battle and was dictated predominantly by ad hoc military considerations — notably the need to deny strategic sites to the enemy if there were no available Jewish forces to hold them.
So I’m not going to let you get away with these lies and slanders John. Do some reading. Read some credible and reliable historians. Do yourself a favor John.
July 9th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
“I do not believe Jews stole any one’s land. We paid for it. If someone was not properly compensated and they can prove they have title, then they should be compensated. Zionists paid lots of money — often overly inflated prices — to mostly absentee land owners for the many acres or dunams of land that we purchased; that we bought. Jewish National Fund was later set up for the purpose of acquiring land.”
They were not buying IN they were buying OUT. It was a hostile take-over; not the purchase of homesteads. Their object was to create an independent, exclusivist Jewish autarky, an independent Jewish economic entity within Palestine. They were backed as you say with foreign capital from the JNF for this purpose. The land was under full cultivation in 1890, but almost all the land was worked by dirt-poor sharecroppers. The Zionists bought the land and kicked them off. This created not only unemployment but gradual loss of ability to earn a livelihood at all as more and more land fell into Jewish hands. It might have worked if the Zionists had settled for simply owning the land or for living in the cities and setting up businesses in the cities rather than buying farms and kicking the Arabs off to work them themselves. And with foreign capital backing the venture, do you wonder that the Arabs revolted in 1929? It wasn’t because of anti-Semitism, Steve. It was because the Arabs were having their country stolen right out from under them by predatory buying practices.
July 9th, 2007 at 2:46 pm
“This is not to deny that Israeli forces did on occasion expel Palestinians but this accounted for only a small fraction of the total exodus and it occurred not within the framework of a premeditated plan but in the heat of battle and was dictated predominantly by ad hoc military considerations — notably the need to deny strategic sites to the enemy if there were no available Jewish forces to hold them.”
http://mondediplo.com/1997/12/palestine
I thought you were going to read Morris’s book, The Birth of the Paletinian Refugee Problem revisited?
It wasn’t “a small fraction,” Steve. Do you not get the news where you live? It was 73% at least according to de-classified IDF/Haganah documents released in the 1980’s:
“In “1948 and After” Benny Morris examines the first phase of the exodus and produces a detailed analysis of a source that he considers basically reliable: a report prepared by the intelligence services of the Israeli army, dated 30 June 1948 and entitled “The emigration of Palestinian Arabs in the period 1/12/1947-1/6/1948″. This document sets at 391,000 the number of Palestinians who had already left the territory that was by then in the hands of Israel, and evaluates the various factors that had prompted their decisions to leave. “At least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our (Haganah/IDF) operations.” To this figure, the report’s compilers add the operations of the Irgun and Lehi, which “directly (caused) some 15%… of the emigration”. A further 2% was attributed to explicit expulsion orders issued by Israeli troops, and 1% to their psychological warfare. This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis. In addition, the report attributes 22% of the departures to “fears” and “a crisis of confidence” affecting the Palestinian population. As for Arab calls for flight, these were reckoned to be significant in only 5% of cases…”
July 9th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
There is no Biblical basis for what was done. It was not done by buying into the economy but through predatory purchasing. The Arab states declared war on Israel in 1948, as was inevitable and expected since the 1880’s. The Palestinian people had no power to do anything. They were driven from their homes at gunpoint by the Israeli military and their land confiscated and resettled with Jewish refugees from Arab lands, many of who were planning to immigrate anyway. I’d say Israel is awash in guilt, Steve. That’s why all the excuses always sound so cheesy.
July 9th, 2007 at 3:09 pm
John:
I visited Israel for 2-weeks in April, 1984 and here is exactly what I saw:
1. The Arabs within Israel (either citizens or day-workers) were friendlier then many urban people I have interacted with in the USA. In fact, some rural USA areas which are pure white were not as friendly and to this day, 2007, I can show you places in rural Maine where the locals would just as soon kick my ass for being:
a. An outsider
b. A Jew
We did not visit deep into the PA zones but pretty much every night for a week, I walked inside the outskirts of the Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem. No problems.
One Arab youth invited himself to be my house guest in the USA.
The Iman in charge of the Al Aska mosque came outside to coerce me to come in and visit. Maybe I should have. Perhaps I started this series of “intafatas” by not going inside.
We visited the border areas of Egypt. No issues.
No gunfire heard during the entire two weeks, not a shot. Can’t say that about South Central LA, not then and not today.
As far as the mixed neighborhoods in the north: Leftist Jews in love with leftist Arabs.
I think the gunshots your guy was so used to hearing was between Arabs and other Arabs.
As far as the open sewers:
Is the Arab lifestyle better in Jordan or Syria?
BTW: Me and my brother were detained and interogated by the IDF upon entry at the airport. Jumpy folk, even then.
July 9th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
As my friend said, you were not deep in Occupied Territory but only on the outskirts and only in Jerusalem and the outskirts of Egypt. That would account for the differences in what you saw. All you saw was how nice the Palestinians were, their friendliness and hospitality and I take it with no hint of anti-Semitism even from the imam. My friend saw that part too. You and your brother were interrogated but not for weeks and not tortured. No, the gunshots were not between Arabs but as he later found out between soliders and kids virtually on a daily basis. Open sewers are not part of “the Arab lifestyle.”
July 9th, 2007 at 3:45 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris#Criticism_of_Morris
Morris has been criticized by other historians for allegedly fabricating events.
Efraim Karsh, professor of War Studies at King’s College London, has repeatedly stated that Morris fabricated his data about atrocities, stating that other historians who examined the same documents came to different conclusions. Karsh’s criticism of Morris and the New Historians is laid out in his Fabricating Israeli History: The New Historians. Since the publishing of the book Karsh and Morris have engaged in a lengthy and heated dialogue on these issues, which has often involved personal insults, and has sometimes been characterized as a feud.
Morris has also been attacked from the opposite pole, by Norman Finkelstein in chapter three of his Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict (2001), in which he argues that Morris repeatedly bent his interpretation of evidence to find Israeli government officials and the IDF innocent of crimes against Palestinians, by juxtaposing quotes from Morris’ book, with full quotations from the source Morris cited.[1]
July 9th, 2007 at 3:50 pm
Morris has been criticized by other historians for allegedly fabricating events.
I wasn’t quoting Morris. I was citing from a de-classified IDF/Haganah document dated June, 1948. These review comments from wiki relate to the entirety of his historical re-constructions. I am referring to a single document and quoting the words of the IDF/Haganah document as reported by Morris and published. There’s really no point in challenging the source, Steve. Yet another cheesy excuse dripping with guilt. The point is that the Israeli military forces drove out at least 73% of the people from their homes at gunpoint and scared the crap out of the rest so that they left too. Guilt. Guilt. Guilt.
July 9th, 2007 at 4:05 pm
in which he argues that Morris repeatedly bent his interpretation of evidence to find Israeli government officials and the IDF innocent of crimes against Palestinians
Yes, Finkelstein thinks Morris is too generous with the IDF versions, that he only quotes the nicest parts sometimes to make it look like the Israelis were innocent when in fact the full reading of the evidence shows they were guilty. Finkelstein thinks Morris soft-pedals it! Morris gives the IDF the benefit of the doubt quite a bit. Finkelstein won’t have it.
July 9th, 2007 at 4:14 pm
other historians who examined the same documents came to different conclusions.
This is not fabricating data or fabricating events. It’s call writing history. It’s what historians do. The document is before you essentially. How do you interpret what it says?
July 9th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
I thought you were going to read Morris’s book, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem revisited?>>>>
I don’t trust Morris John. I certainly do not trust Holocaust denier, Norman Finkelstein. I’ve got three historians that I have a fair degree of trust in, two of them I consider on the political left and therefore biased against my position but still relatively fair. These two are Martin Gilbert and Howard M. Sachar. Sachar, I believe, has an impeccable reputation as an historian. Gilbert is also highly regarded though he sypathizes strongly with the Israeli left. Shimon Peres is a close personal friend and he helped Gilbert with the manuscript.
The most recent historian I’ve added is Ephraim Karsh. I quoted Karsh on the Arab flight from Palestine. Sachar concurs with Karsh’s analysis. I’m not sure about Gilbert though he did write about one episode of forced expulsion. Still I believe this was as Karsh wrote, “within the framework of the heat of battle and was dictated predominantly by ad hoc military considerations.”
I have “Battleground, Fact & Fantasy in Palestine” by Samuel Katz. Katz is a partisan on the right. I’ve got the Encyclopedia Judaica, the entire set. I’ve got this book by Mitchell G. Bard, “Myths and Facts, A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict.” He deals with this subject also on line. Please read it and let me know where you think he is in error:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf2.html#e
As far as the statistics that Finkelstein cites on page 86 of his book, I am still studying this subject. Finkelstein wrote: “The dimensions of this problem are suggested by the fact that, of the 20,418,023 dunams held by the Israeli state at the war’s end, only 1,475,766 were owned by Jews.”
It seems to me that Finkelstein is planting in the reader’s mind, the notion that the Jews confiscated or stole almost 19 million dunams of privately-owned Arab land! Am I not right? This is a monstrous charge! I’m not sure, but I think it may be an outright lie.
According to Wikipedia, as of 1931, “the territory of the British mandate was in excess of 26 million dunams of which a little better than 8 million dunams or 33% were cultivable. Jews owned 1,393,531 dunams in 1945.” So these figures Finkelstein cites look to be accurate. The rough difference between his 20 million dunams and the 26 million dunams of British mandatory land might be the West Bank and Gaza captured by Jordan and Egypt respectively.
You correct me if I am wrong. My understanding is that the reason these roughly 20 million plus dunams were and are held by the “Israeli state” — as Finkelstein characterizes it, rather than the “state of Israel” — is these were (state) lands formerly controlled in the hands of the Ottoman empire and then taken over by the British mandate. These lands were neither owned by Arabs, Christians or Jews. They were state-owned lands.
July 9th, 2007 at 4:54 pm
I don’t trust Morris John.
Irrelevant and cheesy. What do you make of the IDF/Haganah de-classified document?
July 9th, 2007 at 5:06 pm
John wrote: “a report prepared by the intelligence services of the Israeli army, dated 30 June 1948 and entitled “The emigration of Palestinian Arabs in the period 1/12/1947-1/6/1948″. This document sets at 391,000 the number of Palestinians who had already left the territory that was by then in the hands of Israel, and evaluates the various factors that had prompted their decisions to leave. “At least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our (Haganah/IDF) operations.” To this figure, the report’s compilers add the operations of the Irgun and Lehi, which “directly (caused) some 15%… of the emigration”. A further 2% was attributed to explicit expulsion orders issued by Israeli troops, and 1% to their psychological warfare. This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis. In addition, the report attributes 22% of the departures to “fears” and “a crisis of confidence” affecting the Palestinian population. As for Arab calls for flight, these were reckoned to be significant in only 5% of cases…”
You quote from Morris’ book? Where can this document be found? I told you I don’t trust Morris. Give me a website. Anything. I want an independent source.
“At least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our (Haganah/IDF) operations.”
What does this mean? Haganah/IDF operations? It does not say. War makes people flee. There are refugees in most wars. It does not specify what this means, Haganah/IDF operations. IDF was defending the incipient Jewish state all over the country. These Arabs were fighting along-side the Arab invading Armies, the Arab Liberation Army (ALA).
John wrote: “The Arab states declared war on Israel in 1948, as was inevitable and expected since the 1880’s.”
That’s right. Now the Arabs say they are willing to satisfy themselves with what the United Nations offered them in 1947. They are willing to accept two states, a Jewish state and a twenty third Arab state. I find this highly unlikely given their history of aggressions, over and over again and their bellicose assertions of jihad against the Jews in their mosques and in their media, books, etc.
The Jews accepted the partition plan and the Arabs opted for war. As a result these native Arabs allied with the invading armies; many fled.
I say, all bets are off. They opted for war. Now they say they will be satisfied with what was offered twice (an even more generous offer by the British in 1938 and by the UN in 1947) and twice rejected, opting for terrorism, violence and war. Sorry John, all bets are off. You are defending not only a violent and bloody people but a foolish people.
July 9th, 2007 at 5:08 pm
Irrelevant and cheesy. What do you make of the IDF/Haganah de-classified document? >>>
Where is it? Where can it be found? I want to study it. This is the second time I have asked you for a source. This is the second time you’ve ignored my question.
One more time John, provide your source. I want a link. Anything.
July 9th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
These lands were neither owned by Arabs, Christians or Jews. They were state-owned lands.
1.4 million dunums were owned by Jews. The other 20 million dunums were confiscated by the state of Israel from the Arabs, whether Arab possession or Arab control. Thus, the state of Israel stole 20 million dunums of land from the Arabs.
July 9th, 2007 at 5:12 pm
One more time John, provide your source. I want a link. Anything.
It’s not on the web. It’s in an academic journal. I will dig it up and give you the publication data and then you will have to go to an academic library that has the journal in its holdings. I already posted all this on the blog about seven threads back, but I will have to look it up again.
July 9th, 2007 at 5:28 pm
1.4 million dunums were owned by Jews. The other 20 million dunums were confiscated by the state of Israel from the Arabs, whether Arab possession or Arab control. Thus, the state of Israel stole 20 million dunums of land from the Arabs.>>>>>
What Arabs are you talking about? Private Arab land owners had title deed to 20 million dunams of land in 1947? The British turned the Mandate over to the United Nations. The British Mandate expired May 15, 1948. Again, provide your source that 20 million dunams administered under the British Madatory belonged to Arabs.
July 9th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
Mitchel - You make good points in this essay about the attitude of the left.
A related issue is the presistent calls to “end the occupation” with few calls for Israei - Palestinian negotiations. This was the case during the speeches at the rally in Washington on June 10.
Actually, the only way to end the occupation is to negotiate a post-occupation regime. The occupation can not end without something to replace it.
By continuously calling for an end of the occupation, I fear we are taking our eyes off the real prize - negotiations to establish a post occupation world, what is commonly called peace. That is why having a vision fo peace is so important.
July 9th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
Steve, I found this on Wikipedia. You should be able to find the original publication with this:
The Causes and Character of the Arab Exodus from Palestine: The Israel Defence Forces Intelligence Service Analysis of June 1948
This article was first published in Middle Eastern Studies, January 1986.
“The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947/- 1/6/1948″ is the name of a document that was produced by Israeli Defence Forces Intelligence Service. It is dated June 30, 1948 and consists of two parts: a 9 page text and a 15 page appendix. The details in the appendix serves as a basis of the statistical breakdown in the text.
The author is assumed to be Moshe Sasson, assistant to the director of the Arab Department in the Intelligence Service. (He was later Israel’s ambassador to Italy and Egypt.)
The document became publicly known in in 1985, after a copy of the report had been discovered among the papers of Aharon Cohen (former director of Mapam´s Arab Department), which were given to the Hashomer Hatza’ir Archive, Israel.
Content
According to the report there were on the eve of the UN Partition Plan Resolution of 29 November 1947 219 Arab villages and four Arab, or partly Arab towns in the areas earmarked for Jewish statehood. The total Arab population was 342,000. By 1 June 1948, 180 of these villagers and towns had been evacuated, with 239,000 Arabs fleeing the areas of the Jewish state. In addition, 152,000 Arabs had fled form areas which had been designated for Palestinian Arab statehood (Jaffa, Jenin, Acre, parts of Jerusalem +70 villagers). According to the report, the refugee total was 391,000 by 1 June 1948, +/- 10-15 percent.
The report identifies four stages in the exodus, where stage 4, in May 1948 being the decisive stage. The report does not try to quantify the numbers who left during the different stages.
The report lists 10 factors which caused the exodus, and list them “in order of importance”:*
Direct, hostile Jewish [[[Haganah]]/IDF ] operations against Arab settlements.
The effect of our [Haganah/IDF] hostile operations against nearby [Arab] settlements…… (… especially -the fall of large neighbouring centers).
Operation of [Jewish] dissidents [[[Irgun|Irgun Zwaí Leumi]] and Lohamei Herut Yisrael]
Orders and decrees by Arab institutions and gangs [irregulars].
Jewish whispering operations [psychological warfare], aimed at frightening away Arab inhabitants.
Ultimate expulsion orders [by Jewish forces]
Fear of Arab invasion and its consequences [mainly near the borders].
Isolated Arab villages in purely [predominantly] Jewish areas.
Various local factors and general fear of the future.
The report concludes: “It is possible to say that at least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our [Haganah / IDF] operations and by their influence”. In addition, the activities of the dissident Jewish organizations “directly [caused] some 15% [] of the emigration”. The report notes that the dissidents activities were especially important in the Jaffa- Tel Aviv area, in the coastal plain to the north, and around Jerusalem”.
Morris writes:
“the reports goes out of its way to stress that the exodus was contrary to the political-strategic desires of both the Arab Higher Committee and the governments of the neighbouring Arab states” [] “…the report makes no mention of any blanket order issued over Arab radio stations or through other means to Palestinian to evacuate their homes or villages. Had such an order been issued, it would without doubt have been mentioned or cited in this document; the Haganah intelligence service and the IDF intelligence branch closely monitored Arab radio transmissions and the Arabic press.”
July 9th, 2007 at 6:05 pm
Morris, Benny.
“The Causes and Character of the Arab Exodus from Palestine: The Israel Defence Forces Intelligence Branch Analysis of June 1948.”
Middle Eastern Studies. 22 (1986).
July 9th, 2007 at 6:20 pm
Is this a real citation? Not being an acidemic, I can’t tell. Not much of a citation to my lay-person’s mind.
If this paper was authentically authored and it actually says what is being claimed, I can’t believe it is not to be found on 100s of web sites. I mean, a person can search for a paper on ‘the harmfull effectes of seawead on extra terrestrials’ and probably find some such thing.
This exodous issue is probably the most often debated set of facts on the entire controversy.
July 9th, 2007 at 6:24 pm
This article was first published in Middle Eastern Studies, January 1986, John. Daniel Pipes (are you going to say Pipes in no damn good?) questions this Middle Eastern Studies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Eastern_Studies
Middle Eastern studies is a name given to a number of academic programs associated with the study of the culture, politics, economy, and geography of the Middle East, an area that is generally interpreted to cover a range of nations extending from North Africa in the west to the Chinese frontier, including Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and multiple other nations. It is considered as part of area studies taking an interdisclipinary approach to the study of a region.
Although some academic programs combine Middle Eastern Studies with Islamic Studies, based on the preponderance of Muslims in the region, others maintain these areas of study as separate disciplines.
Contentious Issues
In 1978 Edward Said, a Palestinian American professor of Comparative Literature at Columbia University, published his book Orientalism, in which he accused earlier scholars of a “subtle and persistent Eurocentric prejudice against Arabo-Islamic peoples and their culture”, claiming the bias amounted to a justification for imperialism. While other academics challenged Said’s conclusions, the book soon became a standard text of literary theory and cultural studies.
American-Israeli historian Martin Kramer in his 2001 book Ivory Towers on Sand: The Failure of Middle Eastern Studies in America accused Middle Eastern studies programs of ignoring the mounting threat of Islamic terrorism. In a Wall Street Journal article published in 2001, Kramer claimed that Middle Eastern studies courses, as they stood, were “part of the problem, not its remedy”. In a Foreign Affairs review of the book, F. Gregory Gause said his analysis was, in part, “serious and substantive” but “far too often his valid points are overshadowed by academic score-settling and major inconsistencies.”
In 2002, American writer Daniel Pipes established an organisation called Campus Watch to combat what he perceived to be serious problems within the discipline, including “analytical failures, the mixing of politics with scholarship, intolerance of alternative views, apologetics, and the abuse of power over students”. He encouraged students to advise the organisation of problems at their campuses. In turn critics within the discipline such as John Esposito accused him of “McCarthyism”.
July 9th, 2007 at 6:28 pm
John:
The Causes and Character of the Arab Exodus from Palestine: The Israel Defence Forces Intelligence Service Analysis of June 1948
This article was first published in Middle Eastern Studies, January 1986.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Eastern_Studies
“The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947/- 1/6/1948″ is the name of a document that was produced by Israeli Defence Forces Intelligence Service. It is dated June 30, 1948 and consists of two parts: a 9 page text and a 15 page appendix. The details in the appendix serves as a basis of the statistical breakdown in the text.
The author is assumed to be Moshe Sasson, assistant to the director of the Arab (The Arab John?) Department in the Intelligence Service.
(He was later Israel’s ambassador to Italy and Egypt.)
The document became publicly known in in 1985, after a copy of the report had been discovered among the papers of Aharon Cohen (former director of Mapam´s Arab Department), which were given to the Hashomer Hatza’ir Archive, Israel.
July 9th, 2007 at 8:09 pm
Is this a real citation? Not being an acidemic, I can’t tell. Not much of a citation to my lay-person’s mind.
If this paper was authentically authored and it actually says what is being claimed, I can’t believe it is not to be found on 100s of web sites.
Real. Thousands of papers in academic journals are not on the web.
This article was first published in Middle Eastern Studies, January 1986, John. Daniel Pipes (are you going to say Pipes in no damn good?) questions this Middle Eastern Studies:
Ha ha ha ha ha. Ohmigish. Do you read what you post? Look at the next sentence:
“Middle Eastern studies is a name given to a number of academic programs associated with the study of the culture, politics, economy, and geography of the Middle East, an area that is generally interpreted to cover a range of nations extending from North Africa in the west to the Chinese frontier, including Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and multiple other nations. It is considered as part of area studies taking an interdisclipinary approach to the study of a region.”
Got it? MES is the name of some academic programs. Sometimes those programs are called Near Eastern Studies, usually if they specialize in ancient area studies like Egyptology, Assyriology, and Northwest Semitics. My citation is the name of a journal, an academic journal by the same name, Middle Eastern Studies.
And Daniel Pipes can go suck an egg.
July 9th, 2007 at 8:15 pm
Here’s some further discussion of the document:
“One telling document uncovered by Professor Benny Morris is “The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947 1/6/1948″ dated June 30, 1948 and produced by the Israeli Defense Forces Intelligence Service during the first weeks of the truce (June 11 - July 9) of 1948.2 It analyzes the numbers of refugees, the stages of the exodus, the causes, destination and problems of absorption in the host countries. The appendix contains the village by village breakdown in terms of numbers of initial inhabitants, their destinations and the causes of their flight.
On the eve of the UN Partition Plan Resolution of 29 Nov 1947, according to the report, there were 219 Arab villages and four Arab, or partly Arab, towns in the area designated for the Jewish state, with a total Arab population of 340,000 Arab residents. By June 1, 180 of these towns had been evacuated, with 239,000 Arabs fleeing the areas of the Jewish state. A further 152,000 Arabs, from 70 villages and three towns (Jaffa, Jenin, and Acre), had fled their homes in the areas designated for Palestinian Arab statehood in the Partition Resolution. Thus by June 1, according to the report, the refugee total was 391,000, with an error of 10 to 15%.
The UN gives a figure of 750,000 800,000 Palestinian refugees by the end of 1948, so that the period covered by the Intelligence Service Report is one in which roughly one half the refugee population was generated.
The report then outlines eleven (I will list five) of what the IDF Intelligence Service regarded, in June 1948, as the factors which precipitated the exodus, listing them in order of importance as:
Direct hostile Jewish [Haganah/IDF] operations against Arab settlements (the Haganah was the army of the Yeshuv, or Jewish community in Palestine, and was the precursor of the Israeli Defense Force, or IDF).
The effect of our [Haganah/IDF] hostile operations on nearby Arab settlements (especially the fall of large neighboring centers).
Operations of the Jewish dissidents [Menachem Begin’s Irgun and Yitzhak Shamir’s Stern Gang, also known as the Irgun Tzvai Leumi and the Lehi, resp.].
Jewish whispering operations [psychological warfare] aimed at frightening away Arab inhabitants.
Ultimate expulsion orders [by Haganah/IDF].
The Intelligence Service then gives a detailed breakdown and explanation of these factors, stressing that “without doubt, hostile [Haganah/IDF] operations were the main cause of the movement of the population”. The wave of emigration in each district, explains the report, “followed hard upon the increase and expansion of our [Haganah/IDF] operations in that district. The departure of the British of course, helped the Arab evacuation, but it appears that the British withdrawal freed our hands for action more than it influenced the Arab immigration directly.” The report cites:
“surprise, protracted mortar barrages, and the use of loudspeakers broadcasting threatening messages, factors which had a strong influence in precipitation flight”. An attack on one village or town often affected its neighbors. The evacuation of a certain village because of an attack by us prompted in its wake many neighboring villages to fleeThe fall of Tiberias, Safad, Samakh, Jaffa, and Acre engendered in their wake many waves of emigrants.”
The report concludes that:
“it is possible to say that at least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our Haganah/IDF operations and by their influence. the effects of the operations of the dissidents Jewish organizations [the Irgun and the Stern Gang] directly caused some 15% of the emigration.”
The Intelligence Service states that the activities of the Irgun and Stern were especially important in the Jaffa-Tel Aviv area, in the coastal plain to the north, and around Jerusalem. The report cites the “special effect” of the Irgun and Stern Gang operations in Deir Yassin.
The action at Deir Yassin, especially greatly affected the thinking of the Arabs; not a little of the immediate flight during our [Haganah/IDF] attacks, especially in the central and southern areas was due to this factor which can be described as a decisive accelerating factor.
Recall that the Deir Yassin massacre, which occurred on April 9 1948, claimed the lives of about 240 men women and children of this peaceful village and included rapes and mutilations.3 There were other massacres, perhaps two to three thousands, essentially defenseless, Palestinians were massacred, according to Haifa University historian Ilan Pappe, however the Deir Yassin massacre was widely publicized and became, in some ways, the signature of the Irgun and the Stern Gang.
Altogether the report states, Jewish [Haganah/IDF, Irgun, Stern] military accounted for 70% if the Arab exodus from Palestine.
In direct contradiction to Ben Gurion, the report states “the Arab institutions attempted to struggle against the phenomenon of flight and evacuation, and to curb the waves of emigration”. The Arab Higher Committee imposed restrictions, and issued threats, punishments, and propaganda in the radio and press to curb the emigration, and also tried to mobilize the governments in the neighboring Arab states to assist in this effort, as both shared the same interest.
“More than once”, the report states, “[Haganah/IDF units were forced] to expel inhabitants [after they had returned to their homes]”.
In short, this document, which is only one of many to have surfaced in consequence of the historical research of the last 20 years, completely refutes Ben Gurion’s claim and reveals it to have no basis in fact. Ben Gurion was lying through his teeth, to put it plainly.”
http://www.counterpunch.org/martin03112005.html
July 9th, 2007 at 11:47 pm
i can’t see how there can be any doubt that if israel leaves the west bank, it will just strengthen the resolve of the palestinians who want to see israel destroyed. that is exactly what happened in gaza.
July 10th, 2007 at 5:13 am
Real Voice:
It became abundantly clear, beyond any reasonable doubt, that the Arab and Muslim power-brokers in the region (many of them) would not settle for less then a removal of any sort of Jewish majority nation, when Yasser Arafat stormed out of the Peace negotiations in 2,000. He walked away from $30-billion dollars, back when the US dollar could buy more then a glass of water.
The dealbreaker was the status of some 4.5 million so-called “refugees” who were the offspring of some 750k original population. The most conservative estimate (best numbers of the Arab position) was that 250k Arabs were the difference in the population of Arabs who were displaced, versus Jews who were displaced from Arab countries. If they have that much sex, I want to be one of them. But I digress.
Arafat was insensed, angered and insulted. All a show. In reality, had the various “Western” nations offered $300-billion, it would have really pissed Arafat off. Arafat’s job was TO CLEAR THE “REFUGEE” POPULATIONS OFF THE SOIL OF THE HOST COUNTRIES”. In that respect, he was NOT acting in the best interest of the Palestinian-Arabs. He was working for their landlords during an eviction. So that is why you are correct. These Palestinian-Arabs can not afford to go to war with their host countries, so they turn on the Jews as the sole cause of their misery. (Nothing new to report in history.) They will not stop and can not stop until the Jews are displaced from Israel.
July 10th, 2007 at 6:37 am
They will not stop until there is a negotiated political solution. The question is whether Israel will make that happen before the IDF has completely radicalized the entire Palestinian population or driven them into the sea.
July 10th, 2007 at 7:37 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees#Treatment_in_Arab_countries
Treatment in Arab countries
After the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, Arab governments claimed that their great concern was for the fellow Arab refugees and that Israel stood in the way of helping the refugees. Critics argue the Arab governments could easily have provided the refugees with new homes, just as Israel resettled Jewish immigrants and refugees from foreign countries. It was not done, nor did Arab states provide funds to improve the conditions in refugee camps.[15] Some parties find the lack of Arab effort to relieve the refugee crisis as a way of using the Palestinian Arabs as political pawns, to exploit as tools against Israel, and/or to promote anti-Israel sentiment.[16][17]
In 1957, the Refugee Conference at Homs, Syria, passed a resolution stating:[18]
“Any discussion aimed at a solution of the Palestine problem which will not be based on ensuring the refugees’ right to annihilate Israel will be regarded as a desecration of the Arab people and an act of treason (Beirut al Massa, July 15, 1957).”
The Arab League issued instructions barring the Arab states from granting citizenship to Palestinian Arab refugees (or their descendants) “to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland”.[19]
In 1958, former director of UNRWA Ralph Galloway declared angrily while in Jordan:[20]
The Arab states do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it as an open sore, as an affront to the United Nations, and as a weapon against Israel. Arab leaders do not give a damn whether Arab refugees live or die.
Syrian Prime Minister, Khalid al-Azm, wrote in his 1973 memoirs:
Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees […] while it is we who made them leave. […] We brought disaster upon […] Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave. […] We have rendered them dispossessed. […] We have accustomed them to begging. […] We have participated in lowering their moral and social level. […] Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon […] men, women and children-all this in the service of political purposes.
Jordan is the only Arab country which uniformly gave citizenship rights to Palestinian refugees present on its soil. Other countries, especially Lebanon, gave citizenship to a fraction of the refugees[citation needed]. However, there remain a huge number of refugees living in camps in Jordan, and in fact it has the largest such population with over 1 million such refugees. [21]
July 10th, 2007 at 7:50 am
The Arab states do not want to solve the refugee problem.
Galloway’s statement was made in 1958. The Arab Peace Proposal currently on the table is an invitation to negotiate the issue without specifying Arab demands in advance. It simply calls on Israel, “to accept to find an agreed, just solution to the problem of Palestinian refugees in conformity with Resolution 194.” I think it is reasonable to conclude that in fact they do want to solve the problem, whatever their attitude in the past (which I grant you has been less than helpful).
July 10th, 2007 at 8:08 am
Syrian Prime Minister, Khalid al-Azm, wrote in his 1973 memoirs:
Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees […] while it is we who made them leave. […]
Whatever al-Azm wrote or believed, note that his assertion is contradicted by the de-classified Haganah/IDF document I cited above, which states that Israeli Intelligence Service concluded that “Arab calls for flight” had accounted for only 5% of the cases of Arab flight by June of 1948. In fact, that document and others show that the Arabs were in a panic about an influx of refugees and issued orders to forbid their leaving. The documents also show that the famous “Arab radio broadcasts” urging Palestinians to leave never happened and were a post-war propaganda myth, propaganda still being pumped out to this day on this very blog. Some lies won’t die.
July 10th, 2007 at 8:32 am
Whatever al-Azm wrote or believed, note that his assertion is contradicted by the de-classified Haganah/IDF document I cited above>>>
It would seem your assertion is at least in dispute.
http://info.jpost.com/C003/Supplements/Refugees/8.html
Is Israel Guilty of Ethnic Cleansing?
Arab spokesmen, fluent in the use of standard cliches, attribute the refugee problem to a program of ‘ethnic cleansing’ by the Jewish leadership. This is palpably false.
It was first and foremost at the urging of their leaders that the largest number of Arab refugees fled, with the promise of a swift victory over the weak Zionist enemy and an imminent return to their homes. Rumors of atrocities, highlighted by the tragic Deir Yassin episode, fanned a country-wide panic.
Many Arabs did not heed the warnings to flee and stayed on, a wise decision they never regretted. There is peace between the Arab and Jewish communities in downtown Haifa today because of this choice, as is the case in nearby Acre….
Citations from Arab leaders:
“We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.”
- Iraqi prime minister Nuri Said, Sir Am Nakbah (The Secret Behind the Disaster) by Nimr el-Hawari, Nazareth, 1952
“Azzam Pasha assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade … and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean … ”
- Habib Issa, secretary-general of the Arab League (Azzam Pasha’s successor), Al Hoda, June 8, 1951
It is of summary importance to point out that while Jordan’s British-trained, fully equipped Arab legion was able to pummel Jewish Jerusalem with in excess of 10,000 artillery shells, the Hagana had to make do with scant and often makeshift weapons.
“As early as the first months of 1948, the Arab League issued orders exhorting the people to seek a temporary refuge in neighboring countries, later to return to their abodes … and obtain their share of abandoned Jewish property.”
- Bulletin of The Research Group for European Migration Problems, 1957
“The Arab states succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity. They did not recognize them as a unified people until the states of the world did so, and this is regrettable.”
- Abu Mazen from the official journal of the PLO, Falastin el-Thawra (What We Have Learned and What We Should Do), Beirut, March 1976
Leading American and British sources confirm the real cause of the flight:
Citations from the international media:
“The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city…. By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.”
- Time Magazine, May 3, 1948, page 25
“[The Arabs of Haifa] fled in spite of the fact that the Jewish authorities guaranteed their safety and rights as citizens of Israel.”
- Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, New York Herald Tribune, June 30, 1949
“Israelis argue that the Arab states encouraged the Palestinians to flee. And, in fact, Arabs still living in Israel recall being urged to evacuate Haifa by Arab military commanders who wanted to bomb the city.”
- Newsweek, January 20, 1963
Citations from British military sources:
Highly credible are the comments of the British commander of the Arab Legion, who, having bombarded Jewish Jerusalem and destroyed the Jewish Quarter of the Old City, cannot be suspected of a pro-Zionist attitude:
“The Arab civilians panicked and fled ignominiously. Villages were frequently abandoned before they were threatened by the progress of war.”
- General John Glubb “Pasha,” The London Daily Mail, August 12, 1948
“Every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their normal lives, to get their shops and businesses open and to be assured that their lives and interests will be safe.”
- Haifa District HQ of the British Police, April 26, 1948, (quoted in Battleground by Samuel Katz).
July 10th, 2007 at 8:50 am
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_refugees_arabs_why.php
…..Palestinian Arabs bemoan “the uprooting of the Palestinian people in one of the worst crimes of modern history.” But were they uprooted, and if so by whom? In Haifa, one of the largest and most dramatic locales of the Palestinian exodus, not only had half the Arab community fled the city before the final battle was joined, but another 5,000-15,000 apparently left voluntarily during the fighting while the rest, some 15,000-25,000 souls, were ordered or bullied into leaving against their wishes, almost certainly on the instructions of the Arab Higher Committee. The crime was exclusively of Arab making. There was no Jewish grand design to force this departure, nor was there a psychological “blitz.” To the contrary, both the Haifa Jewish leadership and the Hagana went to great lengths to convince the Arabs to stay.
The well-documented efforts, indeed, reflected the wider Jewish attitude in Palestine. All deliberations of the Jewish leadership regarding the transition to statehood were based on the assumption that, in the Jewish state that would arise with the termination of the British Mandate, Palestine’s Arabs would remain as equal citizens. Israel’s Proclamation of Independence, issued May 14, 1948, invited the Palestinians to remain in their homes and become equal citizens in the new state:
“In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its bodies and institutions….We extend our hand in peace and neighborliness to all the neighboring states and their peoples, and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all.”
In the country as a whole, just as in Haifa, the first Arabs to leave were roughly 30,000 wealthy Arabs who anticipated the upcoming war and fled to neighboring Arab countries to await its end. Less affluent Arabs from the mixed cities of Palestine moved to all-Arab towns to stay with relatives or friends. All of those who left fully anticipated being able to return to their homes after an early Arab victory, as Palestinian nationalist Aref el-Aref explained in his history of the 1948 war:
“The Arabs thought they would win in less than the twinkling of an eye and that it would take no more than a day or two from the time the Arab armies crossed the border until all the colonies were conquered and the enemy would throw down his arms and cast himself on their mercy.”
The fabrication can probably most easily be seen in that at the time the alleged cruel expulsion of Arabs by Zionists was in progress, it passed unnoticed. Foreign newspapermen who covered the war of 1948 on both sides did, indeed, write about the flight of the Arabs, but even those most hostile to the Jews saw nothing to suggest that it was not voluntary. In the three months during which the major part of the flight took place — April, May, and June 1948 — the London Times, at that time openly hostile to Zionism, published eleven leading articles on the situation in Palestine in addition to extensive news reports and articles. In none was there even a hint of the charge that the Zionists were driving the Arabs from their homes.
More interesting still, no Arab spokesman mentioned the subject. At the height of the flight, on April 27, Jamal Husseini, the Palestine Arabs’ chief representative at the United Nations, made his long political statement, which was not lacking in hostility toward the Zionists; he did not mention refugees. Three weeks later — while the flight was still in progress — the Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, made a fiercely worded political statement on Palestine; it contained not a word about refugees….
July 10th, 2007 at 8:58 am
It would seem your assertion is at least in dispute.
It will get worse. Katz and others are clinging to the old Zionist propaganda stories that became part of the national myth. They will not let go of these easily.
But the facts that Morris and the “new historians” have documented are now appearing in history textbooks in Israel. It is time to tell the truth, and it is being done.
July 10th, 2007 at 9:00 am
It is a favorite and perhaps most hatefully cruel tactic of the guilty, in this case Israel, to blame the victims for “what happened to them.”
July 10th, 2007 at 9:33 am
It is a favorite and perhaps most hatefully cruel tactic of the guilty, in this case Israel, to blame the victims for “what happened to them.”>>>
What victims? The Jews were the victims. Now wait a minute. Who attacked whom in 1947-48?
July 10th, 2007 at 9:37 am
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1183980035587&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Religious Zealotry in Washington and Jerusalem
July 10th, 2007 at 9:46 am
“The question is whether Israel will make that happen before the IDF has completely radicalized the entire Palestinian population or driven them into the sea. ”
Rediculous.
Drive 400 million people into the sea? Because those who specifically consider themselves apart from Jordanians or Syrians or all the other Arabs in the M.E. are just doing this to create a false impression that they are the minority group.
July 10th, 2007 at 9:48 am
“It is a favorite and perhaps most hatefully cruel tactic of the guilty, in this case Israel, to blame the victims for “what happened to them.”
Guilty for being alive.
The only difference between the Israeli “guilt” and the guilt of the several million dead Southern Sudanese is Apache choppers.
July 10th, 2007 at 3:49 pm
What victims? The Jews were the victims. Now wait a minute. Who attacked whom in 1947-48>
As far as the Palestinians themselves, as opposed to the Arab states, it is not exactly accurate to say they attacked first. The war was in two phases, the first of which was a civil war. And the civil war had been preceded by a Jewish insurgent war by the Haganah and Irgun against the British. The Palestinians were not involved in the Jewish violence which preceded the civil war, were they? In any case, it was when the British left that fighting broke out between the Palestinians and the Jews. The Haganah and Irgun were like the insurgents in Iraq who are fighting the coalition occupation there. When the Americans withdraw from Iraq, as the British withdrew from Palestine, who will be able to say, “The Shia started it” or “The Sunni started it”? So, is it fair to say the Palestinians started it when Arabs killed five Jews on 30, November 1947? Or did Jews start it in February of 1944 when the Irgun and LHI began blowing up British government offices and attempting to assassinate the high commissioner. Now, there is no question but that the armies of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria, the Arab states, the Arab League, were the aggressors after the civil war phase ended. But this is not the same thing as the Palestinian people. It was a civil war and it began in areas of mixed population prior to the time that the Arab states crossed the borders. Israelis claim that the Palestinians were the attackers and that therefore no one should feel sorry for them if they were all dispossessed and became refugees. But it is not exactly the case that they were the attackers. And it is at least arguable that the civil war, the battle for control of Palestine, had been started by the Irgun and LHI in February of 1944, and that therefore the Jews were the attackers.
July 10th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
Now, there is no question but that the armies of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria, the Arab states, the Arab League, were the aggressors after the civil war phase ended.
If you want to say nobody should feel sorry for the Arab states because they have all these refugees on their hands, I would agree with you there. They were the aggressors in May, 1948, and nobody should feel sorry for them because of that. But the Palestinians were part of a civil war with you, a war which Israel arguably started itself in 1944.
July 10th, 2007 at 5:33 pm
Amm… ahhh. well… gosh….I’m speechless:
“As far as the Palestinians themselves, as opposed to the Arab states, it is not exactly accurate to say they attacked first. The war was in two phases, the first of which was a civil war. And the civil war had been preceded by a Jewish insurgent war by the Haganah and Irgun against the British. The Palestinians were not involved in the Jewish violence which preceded the civil war, were they? In any case, it was when the British left that fighting broke out between the Palestinians and the Jews. The Haganah and Irgun were like the insurgents in Iraq who are fighting the coalition occupation there. When the Americans withdraw from Iraq, as the British withdrew from Palestine, who will be able to say, “The Shia started it” or “The Sunni started it”? So