Mon 30 Jul 2007
It’s The Settlements, Stupid!
Posted by Mitchell Plitnick under Israel , Palestine , United States , US-Israel Lobby , Settlements , West Bank , Peace PlansIt’s hard to avoid the conclusion that there is no solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict that can be attained under present conditions. It goes without saying that resolving this conflict requires strong leadership, if not on all sides (Israeli, Palestinian, American) then at least in two out of three. There is no reasonable possibility that significant progress can be made with Bush and Olmert in office and with a fractured Palestinian leadership that doesn’t have mass support in the Occupied Territories. The recent call by George W. Bush for an international peace conference is a grandstanding ploy that has no chance of making a positive impact. What is most important at this time is to re-focus people’s attention on the facts on the ground. The failure of Bush’s policy must be spelled out in specific terms of poor planning, ignorance of the situation and undesirable goals, not just in bad results. Most important, the focus on the settlements in the West Bank has got to be strengthened in a major way.
At this point, few in either Israel or Palestine believe that a Palestinian state is even a possibility in light of the enormous spread of the settlements and their networks (bypass roads, military and police installations, etc.) Moreover, the fact that settlements have grown far beyond even their borders as established by Israel, and the abject refusal of a long line of Defense Ministers to stop the spread of “outposts” means that the entire landscape of the West Bank is covered in settlements, except for the major areas of Palestinian population. The problems with this are obvious as a matter of structure. The problems, however, go deeper because they have already established, in the minds of most Israelis and Palestinians, that the settlements are irreversible facts.
I don’t think they are, but the reversal is only going to come from concerted American action. If the US does not make settlements a leading item on its agenda with Israel, no Israeli leader will be strong enough to act against them, even if they want to. Americans interested in a secure Israel and relief for the besieged Palestinians should be screaming about the settlements, almost to the exclusion of everything else on the Israeli side. If they remain, the two-state solution is dead. And if the two-state solution dies, we are faced with at least 10 years of re-orienting global diplomacy and international law on this issue. Recall, it took nearly 30 years after 1948 for most of the world to come around to two states, and 40 before the US, Israel and many Arab states (on both sides of the question) would accept it.
Reversing the settlement project has to happen BEFORE a serious peace process can begin. It doesn’t have to be complete in order to allow for negotiations, but as things stand now any discussions about the West Bank are a joke.
If one accepts the premise that the settlements can’t be moved, then the only possible way forward is either the status quo, which is obviously unacceptable at least to the Palestinians and guarantees further suffering and bloodshed, or to disband the PA and have Israel re-establish its complete occupation as it existed before 1993. That will lead, quite likely, to a massive growth in the movement for a single secular state. That is unacceptable to almost all Israelis. And since the overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews wish, above all, to preserve Israel as a Jewish state, the only result would be a state of undeniable apartheid. All of this points to why it is absolutely crucial that the option of two states be preserved. Even if one supports a single state, if that solution is forced on Israel in this manner, the result will not be what anyone wants.
Now, I don’t agree with the premise that the settlements on the West bank are irreversible. I would point out that exceedingly few settlements have been in place for 40 years, and the overwhelming majority are 15 years old or less, with quite a few of them being considerably newer. So, while the settlement program may date back to 1967, the vast majority of settlements are not so entrenched.
In the threat of a single apartheid state or the loss of a Jewish state lies the political capital to reverse the settlement project. As those concerns grow in Israel, they will grow in the US as well. That implies not just political capital that an ambitious and strong president can spend on pushing for settlement rollbacks, but also a significant potential for a lobby that simultaneously supports Israel and also supports settlement reduction. The continuing demise of AIPAC’s reputation and the increasing awareness that it does not represent the views of most Jews, American or Israeli (and here I do not contend that Jewish Voice for Peace represents such a majority either, but AIPAC is frankly just as far from it) opens the door for such a lobby, one I can only hope groups capable of doing it can take advantage of.
In any case, what one person who communicated with me on this subject termed a “realpolitik intended to manage the existing circumstances by reducing the risk of further destabilization, achieving humanitarian ends, making the lives of Palestinians at least tolerable, and giving the Israelis a sense of short-term security” brings us back to the same place.
Under the current circumstances, it is impossible to return to the status quo ante of pre-Oslo days. Back then, there was some limited economic growth in Palestine, albeit growth in an economy that was entirely dependent on Israel. But now, if there was to be any kind of substantial improvement in the lives of Palestinians, there are only two options for doing that. One, create a massive welfare system, one that Israel would administer, cutting out the middleman of the PA. That involves enormous cost and essentially makes it impossible for any part of the Palestinian economy to be truly functional. That means it is a major burden on Israel and one that, if Israel abandons it, immediately puts the Palestinian West Bank into a similar condition to Gaza. The other option is to remove at least enough settlements and bypass roads, as well as checkpoints that Palestinians can realistically move from town to town as well as into and out of Jordan and Israel to allow some kind of minimal economic growth. Thus whether the projection that current conditions make a solution impossible (which, I repeat, I don’t concur with, though even if I’m correct about that, the situation envisioned therein is not far off in the future) is right or not, we end up at the same place: the need to remove settlements.
Beyond the question of whether two states is even a possibility at this point, the idea that it remains a possibility is crucial to another main point we need to push, the Arab League offer. It is that offer that creates the real possibility of increased security for Israelis. One should also add that Americans need to be vocal, as some have been, in denouncing the Bush Administration’s blocking of Israel-Syria dialogue (though recent statements by Bashar Assad hanging conditions on such talks, puts something of a damper on any such hopes).
As recently as January 2006, a poll conducted jointly by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research and The Harry S. Truman Research Institute found that Israelis support, by 56% to 41% opposing, negotiated withdrawals from settlements on the West Bank and that 61% support, while 34% oppose the dismantling of “most settlements” in the context of a peace agreement. That is without any serious leadership either from the Israeli or American government on the issue. This something that can happen, and it must if there is to be any hope for a better future for both Israelis and Palestinians. For activists on this issue, I can’t imagine anything more important to press on.
190 Responses to “It’s The Settlements, Stupid!”
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July 30th, 2007 at 7:10 am
A little-known outcome of the 1967 War was that Israeli control of territories west of the Jordan opened up the central hill country to intensive Israeli archeological work. The results of this work have necessitated stunning revisions in our understanding of biblical history. I realize that it must seem bizarre to bring up archeology in response to Mitchell’s post about settlements, but it has a bearing inasmuch as most if not all settlers claim to be carrying out a supposed Divine imperative to re-establish the boundaries of the 10th c. Kingdom of David and Solomon. Forty years of archeological excavation in the central hill country have led to the inescapable conclusion that the Davidic Kingdom was a fiction, that David and Solomon were minor hill country chieftans, and that the kingdom they presided over was a marginal, rural, and unimportant area, which until the 8th c. BCE had no major cities and never more than one-tenth the population of the northern kingdom. The latter evidently had always existed as a separate country. Furthermore, the earliest Hebrew settlements at the beginning of the Iron Age were the result not the cause of the collapse of Canaanite cities and economy under the predations of the Sea Peoples in the late 12th c. There is no evidence of a military conquest of Canaan and, in fact, the archeological evidence is that the Hebrews were themselves Canaanites, until about the 8th c. no different from other Canaanites in any respect including religion. The archeological evidence and its interpretation have been summarized by, Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman in a book titled, The Bible Unearthed (2001). Finkelstein is director of the Nadler Institute of Archeology at Tel Aviv University. Silberman is a contributing editor to Archeology magazine and director of an archeological institute in Belgium. It goes without saying that this is a controversial book. While the archeological results tend to vitiate the claims made by settlers, in my opinion they also throw us back upon a deepened religious understanding of God’s promise to Abraham and the election of the chosen people. Whatever one’s own understanding of that may be, it can never remain quite the same in the light of the new facts which the archeology of the past forty years has brought to light.
http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Unearthed-Archaeologys-Vision-Ancient/dp/0684869136
July 30th, 2007 at 9:11 am
While religious Israeli Jews make their land claims based on O.T. scripture, such is nearly meaningless to both secular Jews and most non-Jews. These “settlements” are therefore not part of the core-issue either and some final agreement could have been reached at most any stage over the last 60 years, had the Arabs been inclined to seriously bargain in good-faith and as a collective group.
However, there have always been several Arab factions in power, each playing (at least) two sides of the street and some being intimidated by others. The “Muslim Brotherhood” goes back to the turn of the 20th century and opposed any notion of a Jewish majority state because it directly conflicted with their interpretation of Qur’anic prophecy. Other elements used political and/or religious concerns to disguise their real motivation, which was merely a primal (tribal) desire to be the biggest ’swinging-di*k’ in the ‘cell-block’.
At the end of the day, the Jews want peace because peace is profitable. The Arabs however have made this impossible because to them (at least to the perception of their general leadership) war is more profitable.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
“These “settlements” are therefore not part of the core-issue…”
They are not so easily dismissed. I agree with Carter (sorry) and others that the two main obstacles to the negotiation of a lasting peace are terrorism on the Palestinian side and the “settlement” on the Israeli side. The settlements are the famous “facts on the ground.” They are the principal reason charges of apartheid are lodged, because their presence requires two sets of laws in the occupied territories, one for the settlers and one for Palestinians. They have been used by successive Israeli governments as place holders to improve the negotiating position of Israel through stealthy encroachment. (Like walking into a theater backwards without a ticket so the usher thinks you are leaving). The Palestinians are asked / demanded to sit still while this takes place before their eyes. Mitchell is right. “It’s the settlements, stupid!”
July 30th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
Of course, something has to catch the blame. Your analogy is clever but not sensible (backwards in the movie house).
If the Israelis would have an agreement and assuming that the Arabs would live up to their part (a HUGE ‘if’), then there would be no more controversy about so called “settlements”. Moreover, there is nothing to stop the Israelis from bargaining back some (or all) of these houses. Now I ask, wouldn’t the Arabs be better off acquiring already built homes then parched turf? Of course. Any inference to the contrary is stupid. Since the Israelis have no pre-conditions regarding the scope of the bargaining re: kept versus traded land, there is nothing at all to stop such a negotiation, before, during or after the construction of new homes. These, by the way are homes, not “settlements”. In the mean time, there is no reason why people should not be utilizing the disputed lands. Chicken-sh*t excuse. If the Arabs want peace, let them come get it and let them demand what they please re: land concessions.
The Arabs rejected 95% of WB and all of Gaza (which they eventually got anyway), plus $30-billion. Egyptian Pres. Mubarak was nearly incensed that Chairman Arafat rejected this proposal.
Life went on without them. Life will continue to go on. The Palestinian-Arabs will continue to suffer and the Jews will continue to be blamed.
Its not the “settlements” (read: houses where people live), its the tyrants. Always has been.
July 30th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
“Moreover, there is nothing to stop the Israelis from bargaining back some (or all) of these houses.”
The problem, as you should know, is that it’s now improved property that is being added to the negotiations and which must be bargained for, so that something MORE must be given up to get their land back than before the Israelis built homes on it. As you say,
“Now I ask, wouldn’t the Arabs be better off acquiring already built homes then parched turf? Of course.”
But this is not a present Israel is going to give the Arabs, Isidor. They will when they finally sit down ask for extra compensation somewhere for the settlements they have built, for their “equity” so to speak. They have made it so that it will now cost the Arabs more to get that land back. They will have to make extra concessions, give up additional territory somewhere to get back any territory that has settlements on it, as the Israelis certainly know. For example, it could be they will be asked to give up Gaza to get the West Bank with all the settlements vacated. Nice trick. Occupied land becomes disputed land becomes improved disputed property.
July 30th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
“it’s now improved property that is being added to the negotiations and which must be bargained for, so that something MORE must be given up to get their land back than before the Israelis built homes on it”
Nonsense. Is that the best you got? The Israelis full know the economic cost of a never-ending military conflict, including required military service, expensive weapons, world-wide boycotts, lack of tourism, etc., etc. You can’t be serious.
During the early stages when China became set to take back Hong Kong from England, people were shocked that Hong Kong real estate did not crash. It continued to boom. No one could understand why large buildings were still going up. The logic is the same as the logic which governs the topic now being discussed. Industry happens. Houses happen. No one is going to freeze in time for another 90 years, while the Arabs grow accustomed to a Jewish majority nation in their back yard.
This is one of the all time weakest points I have ever read of yours. {The Israelis are ever plotting to sell their overpriced slum-dwellings back to the Arabs for obscene profits . . . }
While I have at times been critical of your absent sense of humor, this one is funny John.
July 30th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
Better yet, instead of Gaza, perhaps they will have to give up E. Jerusalem in return for the WB with all settlements vacated. When you say “95% of the land” I believe that was the reality: they would get 95% in return for E. Jerusalem, which was a non-starter. The offer was DOA, but the Israelis got the good PR: “Can you believe it? We offered them 95% and they wouldn’t take it.”
It makes a lot of difference whether you call the lands occupied or disputed, because it has the effect of moving the case from the criminal courts, so to speak, to the civil courts.
International law prohibits annexation of territory through military action. A criminal matter. But Israel has held on with a forty year occupation, a de facto annexation but not so blatantly criminal. Now it’s like neigbors arguing over a strip of land between them. A civil case. Once it becomes framed as a civil dispute, improvements to the property are taken into consideration in arriving at an equitable solution.
July 30th, 2007 at 6:26 pm
Come on John. These two authors have political agenda.
July 30th, 2007 at 6:45 pm
Steve, “these two authors” are reporting the results and conclusions of dozens of other archeologists and scholars, mostly Israeli, over a period of forty years. What they have written is a summary for laypeople of conclusions scholars have been coming to in academic circles for years. Those conclusions run counter to an overwhelming current of religious orthodoxy which has been flowing in the opposite direction for centuries on end. No one set out to reach those conclusions. The earlier work in the discipline was done under the assumption that the orthodox version was correct at face value. It didn’t turn out that way. The book is not about politics. If you will read it or listen to it, I would bet that, like me, you will find the revised understanding of biblical history that has emerged to be even more inspiring than the old one.
July 30th, 2007 at 6:57 pm
These links give you their e-mail addresses. Read the book and ask them a question. I’ll bet you will get an answer.
Prof. I. Finkelstein:
http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/archaeology/directory/dir_israel_finkelstein.html
Neil Silberman
http://www.asor.org/outreach/AskArch/NeilSilberman.htm
July 30th, 2007 at 7:05 pm
” . . .they would get 95% in return for E. Jerusalem, which was a non-starter. The offer was DOA . . ”
Denial, denial, denial.
Why did Chairman Arafat then take so long, from 1993 to 2000 to pitch a fit?
A- Because he had a carefully orchestrated calendar. During all that time the Israelis kept ponying and ponying. The $30-billion was the final insult.
July 30th, 2007 at 7:41 pm
Come on John! This man is not going to deign to answer this Jew. Get real. He has an agenda.
—– Original Message —–
From: Steve Klein
To: fink2@post.tau.ac.il
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 8:39 PM
Subject: Professor Finkelstein
Dear Professor Finkelstein,
I read about your book, “The Bible Unearthed” on a Jewish voice for peace blog. Why shouldn’t I conclude, like some of your the Amazon.com readers, that you have a political agenda?
What Jewish academician is neutral on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? What is your position, may I ask? Is the West Bank “occupied” or disputed territory? Have you done archaeological research on the all important Temple Mount? If not, why not?
Sincerely,
Steve Klein
Fla.
July 30th, 2007 at 8:16 pm
“I read about your book”
Steve, you have an agenda. I wouldn’t answer that email. What, you have only read “about” my book? Why should I answer rude questions from someone who hasn’t even read my book; just things others have said about it which he has decided are true? That has DELETE written all over it. Show him (and yourself) the respect of reading his book first and then asking the question. As usual, you seem to be willing to let others do your thinking for you, in this case someone who wrote a review on amazon.com. When you read something there is always the risk that it may be something new that will challenge or change your ideas about what you thought you knew.
July 30th, 2007 at 8:34 pm
Why should I waste my valuable time reading this book? He’s obviously on the side of Israel’s enemies. It’s the Temple Mount that needs to be examined. What is he going to find on the mountains of Judea and Samaria?
July 30th, 2007 at 8:47 pm
It’s too complicated. You would have to read the book. But never mind. You know everything already. I wouldn’t want your head to split open from learning something new.
July 31st, 2007 at 4:39 am
Here’s his response John. I’ve not a clue what to make of it. Do you?
—– Original Message —–
From: Israel Finkelstein
To: Steve Klein
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 1:43 AM
Subject: Re: Professor Finkelstein
Dear Mr. Klein,
Indeed no political agend — research only. Why is this so difficult to comprehend? The best indication (without revealing personal views): my understanding of the Israeli-Arab conflict has changed in the last few years, in the period in which I was busy writing these studies…
All best,
Israel Finkelstein
July 31st, 2007 at 5:36 am
#1 It was very gracious of him to answer you.
#2 If his personal political views changed during the period he was writing the book, that means whatever his political views are they have no connection to the book, since it has a unified, unchanging theme, namely what archeology is telling us about the historical background of the Bible.
#3 If he does not tell you what his politics are, he is obviously not pushing an agenda but considers his politics a private and personal matter. Professors with political agendas usually make speeches and write editorials. They don’t keep them private.
This is a book about archeology and ancient history. It is built on forty years of scientific work not just by the authors but by literally dozens of Israeli archeologists whose political and religious views are doubtless all across the spectrum. It tells what they did and did not find. BTW, one of them was Yigael Yadin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yigael_Yadin
If he and Silberman wanted to push a political agenda, he and dozens of Israeli archeologists wasted lifetimes of hard work promoting that agenda in a very ineffective way, digging in the hot sun and writing dull books and papers that no one reads.
July 31st, 2007 at 7:30 am
Steve, I should in fairness say that I do obviously have a political agenda and in post #1 cited the book with that in mind.
I mentioned only those aspects of the book which seem to me to have a bearing on settlements and the announced agenda of most settlers. The archeological research presented in the book does deconstruct the biblical portrayal of the empire of David and Solomon and of the conquest of Canaan.
The book does however affirm other aspects of biblical history in a most inspiring way, as I also mentioned. The overall impact of the epic saga of biblical history, and of the formation of the Hebrew Bible itself as part of that history, presented in The Bible Unearthed is awesome and profound. It is a simply thrilling account of God’s calling a people into being as a family, protecting an nurturing them, correcting their missteps, re-calling and re-gathering them and teaching them to live in unity as a family and a holy people over centuries of time and history.
I would be misrepresenting the book if I did not all point that out. My own agenda aside, I really do hope you will read the book at some point. It is in no respect anti-Zionist or anti-Israeli or anti-Jewish or anti-religious IMHO. The book itself is completely apolitical, though I have citied aspects of it as supportive of my political agenda. That is probably the reason you find it difficult to comprehend that Prof. Finkelstein (the archeologist!) is not pushing a political agenda in his book (contrary to the other Prof. Finkelstein in his book!).
July 31st, 2007 at 8:07 am
Have you read the entire book? I spend so much of my money on books, I am reluctant to buy it unless I believe it is worthwhile.
The question I asked the professor, he did not answer because the answer is obvious. Where archaeologists need to be working is on the Temple Mount, digging for the what remains of the first Temple that King Solomon built. What are they going to find out in the environs of Judea and Samaria?
The Muslims will not permit any research on the Mount because they are now denying there was any Jewish presence or a Jewish commonwealth or a Jewish Temple.
I’m sure you remember a few months back when Israel scrapped plans to construct a new bridge to the Mughrabi Gate adjacent to Jerusalem’s Western Wall because Muslims began rioting over the Antiquities Authority’s plan to search for archaeological facts:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1170359844298
As the controversy swirls around the construction of the new bridge leading to the Temple Mount at the Mughrabi Gate, archeologists have already uncovered finds from the medieval period and early Islamic era that shed new light on Jerusalem’s history.
“We have dug three meters down and discovered massive walls which we believe are from the early Islamic Umayyad period,” Jerusalem’s chief archeologist Yuval Baruch said. “Because of its proximity to the Wohl Archeological Park, I personally hope to find the rest of the Umayyad palaces.”
Muslims are deathly afraid the Jews will find incontrovertible evidence linking the Jews with the land.
Finkelstein’s book did not address this issue did it?
July 31st, 2007 at 8:12 am
(The following is part of a Frontpage interview with Mitchell Bard, director of the Jewish Virtual Library. John, read Bard’s answer to the question, “Can you talk a bit about the complexity of the conflict that Israel’s faces?”)
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=3208077D-4B01-44DE-941B-64CD54438B76
Will Israel Survive?
By Jamie Glazov
FrontPageMagazine.com | 7/31/2007
Frontpage Interview’s guest today is Mitchell Bard, the Executive Director of the non-profit American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE) and one of the leading authorities on U.S.-Middle East policy. Dr. Bard is also the director of the Jewish Virtual Library. Bard holds a Ph.D. in political science from UCLA and has written and edited 18 books, including Myths and Facts: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict, The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Middle East Conflict and 1001 Facts Everyone Should Know About Israel. He is the author of the new book, Will Israel Survive?
FP: Mitchell Bard, welcome to Frontpage Interview.
Bard: It’s a pleasure.
FP: What inspired you to write this book?………
FP: Aside from the terror threat, what are some other realities that make Israel’s survival very precarious?
Bard: The principal danger to Israel’s existence is Iran’s nuclear ambition. Israel can live with the other dangers, such as internal divisions, water shortages and even the demographic imbalance, but it is less certain that Israel can survive if an enemy has both the will and ability to use nuclear weapons against it.
FP: What are your thoughts on U.S. Middle East policy?
Bard: Unfortunately U.S. policy is largely driven by the State Department whose principal goal is to placate the Middle East oil producers. Iraq is a separate issue, but when it comes to Israel, President Bush has been on the right path for the most part, but is constantly tugged by the State Department into engaging in futile diplomatic gestures that usually make the situation worse. This is the case now with the effort to bolster the incompetent, weak and corrupt Abbas regime.
FP: With the Hamas-Fatah struggle in front of, what alternative is there to supporting Abbas? It is clear the Abbas regime is also a terrorist regime, but some would argue it is the lesser of two evils. What other options are there?
Bard: Israel always should pursue whatever opportunities are available to achieve agreements with its neighbors. The Israeli people crave peace and that is why they have been prepared to make often risky compromises dating to the days of the mandate and including everything from accepting partition to Sadat’s mere promise of peace in exchange for the Sinai to the disengagement. I am not an opponent of talking as it rarely does any harm, but I know that from the time Abbas first became prime minister under Arafat no one in Israel had any faith in his ability to deliver. Khaled Abu Toameh, a journalist for the Jerusalem Post, also made the keen observation that the more Israel and the United States try to help Abbas, the weaker they make him because in the eyes of many Palestinians he is seen as a collaborator rather than as a strong independent leader.
FP: Can you talk a bit about the complexity of the conflict that Israel’s faces?
Bard: If the conflict were just political, it would be relatively simple to resolve. You could say it’s two people fighting over one land and divide it. But it’s not just about politics. It’s about psychology, history, religion, geography and politics. You can’t understand the obstacles to peace, for example, unless you examine the Arab feelings of shame and humiliation associated with the repeated defeats at the hands of the Jews. Similarly, you can’t understand Israel’s position without taking into account the trauma of the Holocaust or the surprise and near defeat in 1973.
FP: In terms of the Arab feelings of shame and humiliation associated with the repeated defeats at the hands of the Jews, many Arabs till this day are still in denial that this actually happened, no? There is some kind of pathological mindset here isn’t there? Many Arabs simply cannot accept that Allah would allow a defeat at the hands of the Jews and yet that is exactly what happened. This leads to all sorts of psychological pathologies, correct?
Bard: Psychology is crucial to understanding the situation in the Middle East. As you say, one issue is the inability of many Muslims to believe the Jews or any infidels could defeat the warriors of Allah. They must avenge their defeats before it is possible to even consider coexistence. In terms of Egypt, one of the keys to making peace possible was the success of the Egyptians in surprising and nearly defeating Israel in 1973. That allowed them to regain their honor after the humiliation of 1967 and allowed Sadat to pursue peace. Remember Sadat was assassinated at a parade commemorating the “victory” in 73. Some Muslims cannot believe that Israel is not a threat to them because they cannot conceive of a powerful country that would not use its strength to expand its territory. And this point about psychology does not just apply to Israel. Look at Iraq. Much of the killing going on is between Shiite and Sunni Muslims that has to do with the desire to exact revenge on each other for various wrongs committed over centuries.
FP: Crystallize for us how geographical factors play a role in all of this.
Bard: People who have never been to Israel usually can’t appreciate these factors. I took a helicopter from the airport on the beach in Tel Aviv and flew across the entire width of Israel - it took 7 minutes. You can stand in the almost mythic land known commonly as the West Bank and be 15 minutes outside Jerusalem and stand on a hill where you can look the other direction across the country and see the coast. It’s as if someone came to visit me here in Washington, DC, and I took them to the top of the Washington Monument and said, “Look, there’s San Francisco!” In Jerusalem, the Muslim holy places on the Temple Mount are literally on top of Judaism’s holiest site and the Christian Church of the Holy Sepulcher is just around the corner. If you don’t take into account the geography and topography of Israel, you cannot appreciate what is involved in establishing the secure and defensible borders called for in UN Security Council Resolution 242.
FP: For the sake of some readers that might not know, can you define what UN Security Council Resolution 242 is?
Bard: This is the resolution adopted after the Six-Day War in 1967 that has been accepted by all parties as the basis for peace. It is often misunderstood and mischaracterized. Put simply, Israel is expected to withdraw from territory it captured in exchange for peace. The resolution’s framers made clear that Israel was not expected to withdraw from all the territory because the pre-1967 boundaries were indefensible. Since the end of the war, Israel has repeatedly expressed a willingness to make territorial concessions and when it found an Arab partner willing to give peace in return, agreements were signed. Israel has said it will give up most, if not all of the Golan Heights for peace with Syria, but Syria still refuses to say it will accept Israel under any circumstances. Similarly, as recently as the 2000 Camp David negotiations Israel offered to withdraw from 97% of the West Bank, evacuate most settlements and allow the Palestinians to establish a state with its capital in a part of Jerusalem and the Palestinians rejected the offer. If a Palestinian leader ever emerges who is prepared to end the conflict with Israel and has the strength to carry out his promises, then an agreement will be reached between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.
FP: So Israel can never really have the peace that many of us wish for can it? Then what kind of peace can it have?
Bard: I don’t believe Israel can have the type of peace with its neighbors that the US has with Mexico and Canada because, as Benjamin Netanyahu likes to say, Israel lives in the Middle East, not the Middle West. The Middle East is different primarily because of the presence of radical Islamists who will never accept the existence of a Jewish state in what they consider the Muslim heartland or the idea that Jews could rule over Muslims. If Israel withdrew tomorrow from 100% of the disputed territories, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah would not be satisfied because they demand Israel withdraw to the borders of the Mediterranean Sea.
July 31st, 2007 at 8:53 am
I have read the entire book several times. You would have to read the entire book to understand the answer to your question. In the first place there has been a history of excavation of Jerusalem, some of it since 1967. Secondly, there was a shift in archeology itself in the 1970’s. The earlier generation excavated major sites mentioned in the Bible with Bible in hand following the example of Schliemann at Troy, looking for biblical connections that would link structures and layers to the biblical text. They followed this approach for about fifty years and could not make good connections. Jericho was unoccupied at the time of the conquest and the Canaanite cities did not have fortified wall at that period and there was no destruction layer that could be aligned with the conquest. Negative results. The approach since 1970 has been from a different direction entirely, one based in the social sciences and in area studies of climate, soil, topography, food supplies, water supply, agriculture, animal husbandry, migration and settlement patterns, population density, etc. It has involved surveying approximately one square mile per day of entire regions, looking at even small tells and small settlements studying not just walls and structures but such things as animal bones and domesticated and wild plant seeds. It has answered questions about how many people were living in a given area, where did they come from, how long had they been there, what was their life and society like, who were they trading with, what was their relative wealth / poverty, what can we tell about their religion.
Here’s a most interesting example of the kind of thing that was discovered which had been overlooked by the former structure-based approach. The one aspect of the earliest hill country culture of the Hebrews which distinguished it from the rest of the other Canaanite people around them was that no pig bones have been found at any of the sites. They for whatever reason in contradistinction to the others did not eat pork. As Finkelstein and Silberman point out, when modern Jews refuse pork they are in keeping with the earliest known characteristic distinctive of their ancestors as revealed in archeological research.
So, that is a rough answer to your question, Steve. It’s not about Muslims. The earlier generation found no evidence of the palace or Temple of David and Solomon. Yes, you can say this was because their excavations were restricted by the wakf so far. But meanwhile the new generation of archeologists has found evidence that the entire region of Judah had a population of only about 5,000 people in the time of David and Solomon, with perhaps 1,000 living in Jerusalem, roughly a village at the time of the “empire.” The new approach is producing results that for the first time enable scholars to connect the archeology with the text in a convincing way. It’s just that some stunning revisions are called for. The Bible and its message endures. Our understanding advances.
July 31st, 2007 at 9:22 am
“Muslims are deathly afraid the Jews will find incontrovertible evidence linking the Jews with the land. “
There is abundant evidence in this book linking the Jews with the land all the way back to the mid-1200’s BCE, and long, long before that if you recognize that the Jews and the Canaanites were up to the 8th c. BCE essentially the same group of people in every respect including religion (except for not eating pork!). The Hebrews-qua-Canaanites were in the land since it was first inhabited. The Hebrews as a distinct people in terms of region of occupation and settlement pattern arose as mostly-migrant sheep and cattle herders began to settle in the central hill country after 1230 BCE. But the southern region as compared to the northern remained sparsely populated until the 8th c. after the fall of Samaria, at which time the population boomed. The story is one of two separate chosen kingdoms from the very beginning. That was the point at which the religion became distinctive and the Hebrew-speaking Canaanites became Jews, if you will. But they were always in the land.
July 31st, 2007 at 9:25 am
“That was the point…”
Meaning, the mid-8th c. BCE, after the fall of the northern kingdom.
July 31st, 2007 at 9:30 am
John,
Again I wrote Mr. Finkelstein the following:
Dear Professor Finkelstein,
I read about your book, “The Bible Unearthed” on a Jewish voice for peace blog. Why shouldn’t I conclude, like some of your the Amazon.com readers, that you have a political agenda?
What Jewish academician is neutral on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? What is your position, may I ask? Is the West Bank “occupied” or disputed territory? Have you done archaeological research on the all important Temple Mount? If not, why not?
He answered:
Dear Mr. Klein,
Indeed no political agenda — research only. Why is this so difficult to comprehend? The best indication (without revealing personal views): my understanding of the Israeli-Arab conflict has changed in the last few years, in the period in which I was busy writing these studies…
All best,
Israel Finkelstein
He says he has no political agenda, yet he says his understanding of the conflict has changed but he would not say in what way.
Sorry John, I do not buy that the man’s political views do not affect his scholarship. He did not answer whether he considers Judea and Samaria “occupied” or disputed territories. Why?
You say enough research has been done in search of the first Temple. I beg to differ. We know that this period may lie many hundreds of feet beneath the surface because in each generation there things have been buried further and further. This would take the cooperation of the Muslim Waqf authorities. They do not want the Jews to establish a positive connection to this holy site. You know this and I know this.
According to reports, since late 1999 in the guise of building an emergency exit from the underground area known as Solomon’s Stables (which has been converted into a mosque), the Waqf began removing hundreds of truckloads of archaeologically rich material, dumping it in the Kidron valley.
http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp483.htm
This is why they riot when the Jews open up a new tunnel or excavate anywhere near the mount on the phony pretext that the Jews are damaging the integrity of the mount itself. Muslim want to erase any and all connection to the site by the Jews. These authors help to further their cause.
July 31st, 2007 at 10:11 am
” He did not answer whether he considers Judea and Samaria “occupied” or disputed territories. Why?”
Because to do so would disclose his private views which he wishes to keep private (because he is not promoting a political agenda!)
“You say enough research has been done in search of the first Temple.”
I did not say that, “enough.” I said a lot had been done and turned up nothing. More could be done, of course, if the waqf permitted. But meanwhile, new methods have turned up information which has direct implications on what we might find. If the population of Jerusalem was 1,000 souls, how likely is it we will find a palace and Temple complex of empire-like proportions?
As to the interview, I was happy to learn more about Dr. Bard as I do refer to the JVL from time to time for documents. A couple of random responses:
He says the principal danger to Israel’s existence is nuclear Iran. If that’s true, they can relax. Because a nuclear Iran will make no difference. Israel has had a nuclear arsenal for some time. If Iran arms all it will mean is MAD, mutually-assured destruction, which deters either side from deploying their nukes. Pakistan has had nukes for quite some time also.
He says many Muslims cannot believe “Jews or any infidels could defeat the warriors of Allah.” Muslims do not generally believe Jews are “infidels.” They believe they are People of the Book along with Christians, mistaken monotheists, followers of the religion of Abraham.
He says the Middle East is different from the Middle West in its inability to arrange peace between neighbors “because of the presence of radical Islamists.” There has been no peace since 1948, but radical Islam (Salfist Islam, Jihadist Islam, radical Shiite Islam) is a relatively recent phenomenon qualitatively different from anything we’ve seen before. Hezbollah is a post-Khomeini-style Shiite group that arose in the Lebanese Civil War (1975-1990). Hamas began in 1987. Al Qaeda arose in the 1980’s and has no connection to Israel. Fatah al-Islam arose in 2006. Islamic Jihad arose in 1979. These are all radical Islamist groups, meaning they preach world-wide jihad and either Salafist or radical Shiite ideology.
But the thing they have in common is recent origin. What about Arafat and Fatah? Definitely militant but qualitatively different from the others IMHO; not Islamist. So my point is that Israeli policies are radicalizing the Palestinians, who used to be among the most secularist of Muslims in the ME. As Uri Avnery said this week, the policies of Olmert are virtually assuring the takeover of the WB by Hamas. The U.S. and Israel need to stop “making” more radical Islamists, i.e., helping their recruiting efforts.
I realize you will disagree with most if not all of that, but anyway that’s my response to the interview with Dr. Bard.
July 31st, 2007 at 10:59 am
“Sorry John, I do not buy that the man’s political views do not affect his scholarship.”
I won’t defend him any more because I don’t think he needs defending. Buy whatever you like. But let me ask you about your work. Do your political views on America affect the plants in your greenhouse? Does your political agenda somehow show up in the plants? Can a person tell from the plants what your politics are? Do you label the products “GOP-grown” or “grown under pro-Israel conditions” or something like that? He keeps his politics and his work separate.
July 31st, 2007 at 6:44 pm
John, why don’t you ask me, like some of my customers have done over the years, if I talk to my plants?
July 31st, 2007 at 7:04 pm
OK. Do you talk to your plants? And what do you grow, btw?
July 31st, 2007 at 7:29 pm
No, I don’t.
I’m starting my Poinsettia crop. I grow Begonias, Hydrangeas, New Guinea Impatiens, Geraniums, Cyclamen, Chrysanthemums, and other tropical flowering seasonal plants.
I would send digital pictures but I am not computer savvy enough.
July 31st, 2007 at 9:49 pm
Must be onderful to work with such beauty, color.
I guess the more important question is, do the plants talk back?
August 1st, 2007 at 6:36 am
The historical record that exists states that millions of Hebrews were killed during the various Roman genocides of the early ‘common era’.
Moreover, 40,000 Jews were said to have been taken into captivity in Babylon, as far back as 650-BCE and these Jews were not randomly selected either. They were the royal and priestly families. This was done as a strategic move to prevent a rebellion in the newly “occupied” Judah. So, if there were 40,000 persons from just the royals and priests, and assume we throw a few percent of servants and such in the mix, then, how many people constituted the general population of Judah — in 650-BCE???
But all of this lacks relevance. There can be no dispute that Jerusalem is the spiritual capitol of the Hebrew nation. It even says so in Qur’an 17:104, using the wording “promised land”. There can also be no debate that Jews were prohibited by various laws from moving to Palestine almost continuously up till the 1920’s.
Just as the 1960’s white Americans would often taunt Blacks and tell them to go “back to Africa”, the early solution within Islam was to instruct the Jews to essentially, “go back to Jerusalem where you belong”. This instruction is no longer convenient and so a new debate has cropped up. Namely, how big was David’s castle and so forth.
All bullsh*t. The Jews needed a place to be left alone after 2,000 years of being raped, pillaged and murdered. Jerusalem was not only the best place but was a natural and reasonable solution in view of the fact that the Arabs had gained wide-spread independence during the same time-frame. Less than 100 years later, Arabs now control 98% of the land in the M.E. and almost 100% of the oil, depending on how one sees the control over Kurdish oil. Enough with the Bullsh*t.
The reason I know for a fact that Israel is wrongly accused of crimes is that I am also routinely (wrongly) accused of transgressions. It has almost become a daily routine. It used to be (pre-9-11) that (maybe) once a month, someone would scape-goat me and generally, when I put up resistance, I would be successful 2/3rds of the time. Now, I have such (baseless and unwarranted aggravation) on a daily rotation and I loose about 95% of the time when I resist.
Do the math. Have I become that dramatically more unreasonable? Did this quantum shift in my persona occur all of a sudden in one year (2001)? Have I also lost most all of my effectiveness to assert my rights?? Bullsh*t. Its the ‘fungus-factor’. The boss yells at the employee who comes home and yells at his wife who then yells at the child. The child then kicks the dog. The Arabs (mainly due to the oil) have become the “boss’ and the Jews occupy their traditional position as ‘dog’, where they have resided for 2,000 years. The position of “boss” sometimes changes but the “dogs” never get a promotion, or a day off for good behavior.
August 1st, 2007 at 7:42 am
Isidor, the situation in the 10th c. is only relevant to the avowed agenda of the majority of settlers. There was no vast Davidic Empire. David and the Empire are essentially like Arthur and Camelot: a national legend. Aside from that it is irrelevant. However, Judah was very sparsely populated until the 8th c., i.e., after the fall of Samaria / Israel in 721 BCE. At that point the population exploded. It was from that boom that the Babylonians were able to deport the upper level of society in 587 BCE, which they did to exploit their talents in Babylonia. They left the illiterate farmers and poor in Judah and didn’t give a crap what happened to it.
Now, what has happened to you personally since 2001? What is that all about? You are being persecuted as a Jew specifically? We spoke once before about business issues since 2001, but my assertion was that adverse effects were across the board and not specific to Jews. Whassup?
August 1st, 2007 at 8:08 am
John wrote: “He says the Middle East is different from the Middle West in its inability to arrange peace between neighbors “because of the presence of radical Islamists.” There has been no peace since 1948, but radical Islam (Salfist Islam, Jihadist Islam, radical Shiite Islam) is a relatively recent phenomenon qualitatively different from anything we’ve seen before.”
You are discarding the contributions of great Islamic thinkers and scholars like Taqi ad-Din Ahmad ibn Taymiyyah, 1263 - 1328, Muhammad Ibn Adul Wahab and others.
Ibn Taymiyyah believed that the first three generations of Islam — Muhammad, his companions, and the followers of the companions from the earliest generations of Muslims — were the best role models for Islamic life. Their practice, together with the Qur’an, constituted an infallible guide to life. Any deviation from their practice was viewed as innovation, and to be forbidden. Ibn Taymiyyah favored a literal interpretation of the Qur’an.
Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab came under the influence of the Hanbali Islamic scholars, admirers of the writings of Ibn Taymiyya.
Ibn Abdul Wahhab wrote, “We must find out what true Islam is: it is above all a rejection of all gods except God (Allah), a refusal to allow others to share in that worship which is due to God alone (shirk). Shirk is evil, no matter what the object, whether it be ‘king or prophet, or saint or tree or tomb.’ ”
The war against shirk (polytheism) became ibn Abdul Whahhab’s central focus. In this, ibn Abdul Wahhab was following pure Islam, for the Qur’an states, “Kill those who ascribe partners to Allah, wheresoever you find them.” Polytheists (mushrikun) were ibn Abdul Wahhabs’s declared enemy. Rightly so. Ibn Adbul Wahhab followed in the steps of the prophet.
August 1st, 2007 at 9:00 am
To argue against my assertion that what we are seeing (Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, Muslim Brotherhood, etc.) is a recent phenomenon you cite in evidence 13th c. Muslim theologians? Wahabism is the state religious sect of Saudi Arabia, which is the principal target of Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda. These philosophers you cite are medieval contributions to Salafism.
But Salafist ideology in its current incarnation in the political world today is a relatively recent phenomenon. The U.S. and Israel need to stop helping its recruiting efforts through their policies and rhetoric.
Sharon, for example, exploited 9-11 by telling Bush “Now you see what we have been up against.” He deceitfully connected Al Qaeda to Palestinian terrorism when there was no such connection.
August 1st, 2007 at 9:30 am
John:
I keep explaining that every Jew I know has seen a major increase in their daily dose of trouble in the past 5-6 years. The more “Israeli” the Jew, e.g., if they have a mid-east sounding name or if they are in fact Israeli, the worse the problems. Some minor exceptions include MD’s DDS’s or other licensed professionals. My brother is now in Court with 5 cases (whereas before 2001 he never had any litigation). I just finsihed a case wherein my adversary spent $4.5 million in legal costs, chasing $1.5 million in actual dispute. I lost and the Judge’s Decision was filthy. The Judge stated that I was “a difficult person” because I secretly recorded conversations. However, in my state, such secret recordings are totally legal and completely admissible in Court.
(BTW: The judge got a big promotion one week before the trial started.)
I could go on for volumes. People are on a VERY short fuse when it comes to dealing with Jewish people. Not everyone. (Some non-Jews actually recognise this and try to compensate.) Many others think we are getting what we deserve for jeopardising the safety of the world and (collectively) oppressing the only “minority” group in the world that is worth sticking up for, the Palestinian-Arabs.
I therefore submit that the Palestinian-Arabs are pawns who are being used as a ’stick’ by which to beat the Jews.
August 1st, 2007 at 11:25 am
Steve wrote:
The war against shirk (polytheism) became ibn Abdul Whahhab’s central focus. In this, ibn Abdul Wahhab was following pure Islam, for the Qur’an states, “Kill those who ascribe partners to Allah, wheresoever you find them.” Polytheists (mushrikun) were ibn Abdul Wahhabs’s declared enemy. Rightly so. Ibn Adbul Wahhab followed in the steps of the prophet.
Source?
As you well know from previous discussions with you and Isidor, this verse is quoted out of context and here misrepresented in order to defame “pure Islam” and “the prophet.” Please bookmark this link so I don’t have to keep referring you to it when you cite Surah 9:5
http://www.muslimaccess.com/articles/jihad/kill_the_infidels.asp
Better yet, if you have to make points for your side of the argument by smearing and demonizing the other side, why not try a new verse? Aren’t they evil enough without Islamophobes making stuff up about them?
From the page linked above:
“Based on the above, we can now investigate verse (9:5), “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.” One of the main concerns of Chapter (Surah) 9 of the Quran (a Surah is a collection of verses) was to delineate the strategies for dealing with the polytheists of the Arabian Peninsula after the Muslims, under the leadership of Prophet Muhammad, peacefully captured Mecca (In January, 630, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him and his followeres were joined by tribe after tribe along their way to Mecca. They entered Mecca without bloodshed and the Meccans, seeing the tide had turned, joined them.) the city that since the beginning of Islam lead the oppression and persecution of the Muslim converts.
(6) Since the polytheists differed in their relationship with the new religion after its victory, there was a need to differentiate between the malevolent enemies of Islam bent on destroying the Muslims and who did not observe their treaties with the Muslims, those who hated Islam but were willing to honor their treaties with Muslims, those who rejected Islam but peacefully co-existed with the Muslim community, etc. The aforementioned verse (9:5) was concerned with the most vehement opponents of the Islamic faith not by virtue of their refusal to be Muslims but by continually breaching their treaties with the Muslims and fighting them. Given that, their treatment is not equal, the complete verse says, “So when the sacred months have passed away, then fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and keep them under observation, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely God is Forgiving, Merciful.” Meaning: so when the grace period (4 months) is past, and if the other party insists on fighting Islam, then a state of war is inevitable. The struggle may take the form of killing, or capture and imprisonment, or just keeping an eye on these enemies to fend off their evil if they decide to launch an offensive against Muslims. The punishment should be fair and just and, thus, must be proportional to the crimes actually committed. Not only this, but the pagans can repent and accept Islam, as evident from the last part of (9:5), or desist from attacking Muslims and ask for protection, as evident from the next verse (9:6), “If one amongst the pagans ask you for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure.”
Understanding the verses’ historical context is crucial, not to confine them to their context, but for a proper comprehension of their implications. Moreover, as shown previously, the verse must be interpreted along with all the other verses explicating how a Muslim should deal with others, Muslim or non-Muslim, including verse (8:61), “And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in God; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing.”"
I will not quarrel about Wahhab’s interpretation but rather the added remarks of your uncited source, who misrepresents this verse by citing it out of context intending to defame Islam and Muhammad as well.
August 1st, 2007 at 11:39 am
Isidor,
I don’t know the circumstances but sympathize. I’ve not heard of this as a problem Jews are experiencing across the board. I think there is no question however that Muslims in America have been targeted from all sorts of directions since 9-11, both officially and privately. Just a tiny example, one guy I know who is a Muslim with decided Mid-Eastern looks tells everyone he is from India. There was a huge uproar recently about a new mosque being built in a suburban / rural community (on commercial real estate). Whatever the animosity Jews may be feeling as the result of 9-11, at least they are not perceived as a potential terrorists or terrorist-sympathizers or co-religionists, which is often the case with American Muslims.
August 1st, 2007 at 11:44 am
Sharon, for example, exploited 9-11 by telling Bush “Now you see what we have been up against.” He deceitfully connected Al Qaeda to Palestinian terrorism when there was no such connection.>>>>
Sharon was exactly right!
August 1st, 2007 at 12:14 pm
John wrote, quoting me: The war against shirk (polytheism) became ibn Abdul Whahhab’s central focus. In this, ibn Abdul Wahhab was following pure Islam, for the Qur’an states, “Kill those who ascribe partners to Allah, wheresoever you find them.” Polytheists (mushrikun) were ibn Abdul Wahhabs’s declared enemy. Rightly so. Ibn Adbul Wahhab followed in the steps of the prophet.
John: Source?
The Arabic word for “Idolators” or “pagans” in the Koran is mushrikun.
See Dr. Andrew G. Bostom author: The Legacy of Jihad.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/09/the_pope_jihad_and_dialogue.html
“The idolaters (mushrikun) were clearly compelled to accept Islam — unless they preferred to let themselves be killed. [Note—Koran 9:5]”
“(The) Koran 9:5 alone is held to have abrogated as many as 100 pacific (or seemingly pacific verses).
Koranic sources, in particular the timeless war proclamation (the Koran being the ‘uncreated word of Allah’ for Muslims) on generic pagans (not simply Arabian pagans), Koran 9:5, offers pagans the stark ‘choice’ of conversion or death:
“Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor—due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.”
The idolatrous Hindus (and the same applies to enormous populations of pagans/animists wherever Muslim jihadist armies encountered them in history, including, sadly, contemporary Sudan), for example, were enslaved in vast numbers during the waves of jihad conquests that ravaged the Indian subcontinent for well over a half millennium (beginning at the outset of the 8th century C.E.). And the guiding principles of Islamic law regarding their fate —derived from Koran 9:5—were unequivocally coercive. Jihad slavery also contributed substantively to the growth of the Muslim population in India. K.S. Lal elucidates both of these points:
The Hindus who naturally resisted Muslim occupation were considered to be rebels. Besides they were idolaters (mushrik)…..”
August 1st, 2007 at 2:25 pm
“Whatever the animosity Jews may be feeling as the result of 9-11, at least they are not perceived as a potential terrorists or terrorist-sympathizers or co-religionists, which is often the case with American Muslims.”
Absolutely true. In fact, go a step further. Among profoundly ignorant people, even Hindus catch animosity because they are ‘close enough’ to pass as Arabs. Just as Chinese-Americans had to run for their lives after Pearl Harbor. Very sad. But each group in turn has its glory-days and its rainy days. Japanese in the 1970s became sheik. Blacks went from being lynched in the 1950’s to white kids listening to their rap music today.
Jews exist on a separate band-width entirely. With us, we get kicked by any and all other groups who aren’t having a good day.
If the Arabs are being bashed, they bash us for G.P.
If the Blacks are loosing expendable income, they blame us.
And, to a lesser though significant extent, if the whites don’t like $3.00 gas or don’t like troops and/or National Guard in Iraq, or 9-11, etc., etc., as I said, we are the last ‘dog’ in line, no matter who is before us.
You may have no appreciation for this but it is somehow a more generally depressing form of hatred because at least an Arab can expect not to be bashed by another Arab. We are routinely bashed even by other Jews because as Phyllis Chessler puts it, they think they can shed their own hatred by joining in with the chorus of hatred.
August 1st, 2007 at 2:41 pm
Steve, I am not questioning the translation of “mushrikun.” What is the source of the entire quotation? Are these your words?
“The war against shirk (polytheism) became ibn Abdul Whahhab’s central focus. In this, ibn Abdul Wahhab was following pure Islam, for the Qur’an states, “Kill those who ascribe partners to Allah, wheresoever you find them.” Polytheists (mushrikun) were ibn Abdul Wahhabs’s declared enemy. Rightly so. Ibn Adbul Wahhab followed in the steps of the prophet.”
Did you read the material I quoted in my post? The passages you have cited from the piece by Andrew Bostom, MD in American Thinker misrepresents Surah 9:5 in exactly the same way your first source did, as connected with “forced conversion.” Surah 9:5 is not about forced conversion.
Are you the source of the quotation about ibn Abdul Wahhab (above)? Or did it come from Bostom in another work? Bostom, btw, is a medical doctor, a kidney specialists, who writes anti-Islamic articles for far-right news outlets. If his misuse of this verse is any indication of his use of evidence in “The Legacy of Jihad,” I wouldn’t waste my money on it. Forced conversion is actually prohibited in the Quran, as we have discussed previously. (”There is no compulsion in religion.”) Hindus are mushrikun. There were thousands of them living in Moghul India. Note the other options described in the Muslim refutation I cited. Like I said, at least try a new verse.
August 1st, 2007 at 2:45 pm
Hindus were not enslaved in Moghul India. They were taxed!
August 1st, 2007 at 3:23 pm
“Jihad slavery also contributed substantively to the growth of the Muslim population in India. K.S. Lal elucidates both of these points…”
If you take the trouble of googling “jihad slavery” you will find that the phrase seems to be an invention of Dr. Bostom, as all the hits are pieces written by him or quoting him.
Lal is an Indian historian. His book on slavery in India during Muslim rule is posted online:
http://voiceofdharma.com/books/mssmi/
What Lal describes over several hundred pages is not essentially Islamic but Arab. And in fact as he points out slavery was practiced in India as a recognized part of society from the very earliest times, long before the Muslims came. Slavery was an ancient social practice, even mentioned in the Hebrew Bible. Hagar is described as a slave, for example. Slavery was not however a religious practice in Islam or any other ancient religion to my knowledge. Mor was a person given the choice of conversion or slavery. Did Arab conquerors takes slaves? Yes. Did Arabs engage in slave-trade, including the African slave-trade? Yes, they were notorious slave-traders. But Bostom apparently is the inventor of jihad-for-taking-slaves, i.e., a purported Islamic religious doctrine of jihad for the purpose of taking slaves.
You see, Isidor, everyone feels entitled to invent and spread lies about Islam these days. Fortunately many of them are so outlandish even Stevie Wonder could see through them.
August 1st, 2007 at 4:37 pm
I wrote: “The war against shirk (polytheism) became ibn Abdul Whahhab’s central focus. In this, ibn Abdul Wahhab was following pure Islam, for the Qur’an states, “Kill those who ascribe partners to Allah, wheresoever you find them.” Polytheists (mushrikun) were ibn Abdul Wahhabs’s declared enemy. Rightly so. Ibn Adbul Wahhab followed in the steps of the prophet.”
John asks: Are you the source of the quotation about ibn Abdul Wahhab (above)? Or did it come from Bostom in another work? >>>>
I was paraphrasing Ambassador Dore Gold, though (yet) Gold does not believe Wahhabi Islam is pure Islam. I do however believe Wahhabi Islam is pure Islam.
Ascribing partners to God is a theme in the Koran. They (Jews and Christians) make of their clerics and their monks, and of the Messiah, the son of Mary, Lords “besides” Allah; though they were ordered to serve one God only…..Exalted be He above those whom they deify “besides” Him.
Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall, Surah 9:30-31:
“And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
“They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One Allah. There is no Allah save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!
August 1st, 2007 at 4:51 pm
Again, Steve, this has nothing to do with mushrikun, ascribing partners to God. I have already told you that I am not arguing about the translation of that word. (And we also both know what kind of things the Torah has to say about ascribing partners to YHWH) What I am talking about is misrepresenting a verse of the Quran by citing it completely out of context with the intention of defaming both Islam and Muhammad. The verse is about mushrikun, those who ascribe partners to God. It is not about “forced conversion.” If that’s what Wahhab thought, fine. But it’s not based on the Quran. Was it practiced by Arab conquerors at one time or another? Sure. But it was not based on the Sunnah of Muhammad, as your paraphrase of Gold purports. Like I said, if the Islamic radicals are really evil, why do you need to make up stuff about them? When you are making up stuff about Islam you are defaming 20% of the world’s population; not just terrorists. Get a new hobby?
August 1st, 2007 at 6:06 pm
John wrote: “Like I said, if the Islamic radicals are really evil, why do you need to make up stuff about them?”
John, Islam itself is radical. Do you believe “Islamic radicals” like Osama bin Laden are really evil?
There are Sufi (or mystic) Muslims like Stephen Schwartz who are not radical but these are not mainstream Muslims nor mainstream Islam in my opinion.
I don’t make up “stuff” about Islam.
Your term, “Islamic radicals” demonstrates a contempt for Islam does it not? It seems to me, you are trying to divide fundamentalist Islam between radicals and non-radicals.
If you believe fundamentalist Muslims are evil then don’t you have contempt for Islam?
August 1st, 2007 at 7:14 pm
I try to avoid ascribing evil. I do sometimes, but basically I think demonizing others is wrong and a spiritual trap. I’m not a Muslim, as you know, but I think Islam is a wonderful religion and have from time to time gotten helpful insights about God from reading the Quran. I never listen to polemics against any religion coming from outsiders. They generally have some kind of axe to grind and usually don’t know what they are talking about. Throughout history there has been a tremendous amount of evil done by human beings in the name of religion. It doesn’t come from the religion or from God but from human beings. As the song says, “You’ve got to be carefully taught.”
You’ve got to be taught to hate and fear,
You’ve got to be taught from year to year,
It’s got to be drummed in your dear little ear—
You’ve got to be carefully taught
You’ve got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a different shade—
You’ve got to be carefully taught.
You’ve got to be taught before it’s too late—
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate—
You’ve got to be carefully taught!
You’ve got to be carefully taught!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You’ve_Got_to_Be_Carefully_Taught
August 2nd, 2007 at 4:59 am
You find it hard to ascribe evil to Osama bin Laden. Have you watched the videos of September 11, 2001? People burned alive in the upper floors of the towers. Many jumped to their deaths to avoid the tremendous heat; many thousands murdered, crushed, pulverized. You find it hard to ascribe evil to Osama bin Laden? Isn’t there something psychologically troubling about this?
August 2nd, 2007 at 5:14 am
John wrote: “Bostom, btw, is a medical doctor, a kidney specialists, who writes anti-Islamic articles for far-right news outlets.”
Jimmy Carter is a peanut farmer. He’s not a theologian but you might mistakenly take him for a theologian beginning with the first few pages of his book, “Palestine Peace Not Apartheid.”
“The Bibles says that when the first blood was shed among His children, Gad asked Cain the slayer, “Where is Abel thy brother?” and he said, “I know not. Am I my brother’s keeper? And the Lord said, “What hast thou done? The voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto Me from the ground. And now art thou cursed…” (Gen 4:9-11) …. The spilled blood in the Holy Land still cries out to God — an anguished cry for peace.” pgs. VI; 18-19,
Throughout the book Mr. Carter reasons on theological grounds.
August 2nd, 2007 at 6:12 am
“You find it hard to ascribe evil to Osama bin Laden?”
Go back and read what I said, Steve. I do not find it hard to ascribe evil. To the contrary, I find it easy to ascribe evil. What I said was I try to avoid it. And then I gave you my reasons, both of which have to do with me rather than with the other person(s). I leave the law to deal with his crimes and God to deal with his soul.
August 2nd, 2007 at 6:27 am
“Throughout the book Mr. Carter reasons on theological grounds.”
He is a religious man. He may be a peanut farmer in the same sense that Bush is a baseball front office PR man, but it’d be hard to imagine any other peanut farmer writing such a book. That’s because he is a former president and one who directly involved in peace negotiations for many years. The book is largely a personal memoir overlaid with personal observations and suggestions. He was uniquely qualified to write it. So far, I’ve not seen how Bostom is qualified. Islam-bashing seems his avocation and his agenda. He has a new book about Islamic Anti-Semitism, btw. He needs a new hobby.
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:19 am
I care neither that Carter was a peanut farmer or a resident of 1600 PA Ave. Some of the most profoundly brilliant people I have known were too smart to countenance the politics which is prevalent in university.
But Carter is a Bull-sh*t artist of the foremost magnitude, which does not make him stupid either. Quite the contrary. He has perfected a style of disingenuous-ness which bypasses the standard conscious perception and directly influences the ‘reptilian brain’. Joe Lieberman also has this talent, albeit Lieberman is a rank novice compared with the master, ‘Jedi Carter’.
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:31 am
Thank you for sharing that, Isidor. And may I say that when it comes to the art of bullsh*t you would be qualified to write your own book.
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:52 am
“a style of disingenuous-ness which bypasses the standard conscious perception “
Actually, I’d be interested to hear you elaborate on this if you don’t mind (I assume you wouldn’t). What is it exactly that you see there? Why / how does it bypass conscious perception?
I suspect it could be his rhetorical style, which is not peculiar to him but is somewhat in the manner of Southern Baptist Sunday School teachers in general. But speak on and I’ll listen.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:05 am
Let me put it this way. Is this what you are saying? To ordinary conscious perception, to the untrained eye, he doesn’t seem disingenuous. But to my “lizard brain” there is something there that tells me he is not to be trusted, is being disingenuous, is full of BS. Something that does not match the words he is speaking. Is that it?
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:56 am
Go back and read what I said, Steve. I do not find it hard to ascribe evil. To the contrary, I find it easy to ascribe evil. What I said was I try to avoid it.>>>>
I guess herein lies the difference between Christians and Jews John. Christians believe they are obligated to NOT judge. As you wrote: I leave the law to deal with his crimes and God to deal with his soul.
Conversely, Jews are very much obligated to judge but to judge fairly, impartially and righteously. See Leviticus chapter 19.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:02 am
I’ve not seen how Bostom is qualified.>>>
This is your opinion that Bostom is not qualified.
I only brought up Carter’s avocation because you made Bostom’s vocation an issue. Because Carter is a farmer by training does not disqualify him to weigh in on the Israeli- Arab conflict but neither does Andrew Bostom’s or mine for that matter, though I am not nearly as learned on the history of Islam as is Dr. Bostom.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:13 am
John wrote:
“Thank you for sharing that, Isidor. And may I say that when it comes to the art of bullsh*t you would be qualified to write your own book.”
But no one would read it because it would be entirely false.
John, I am going to say this as nicely as I can:
If you were an honest person, you would be an extraordinary genius. Much smarter then myself. I gain my intellect — at least 50% through my selfless honesty. You donate your intellect (sacrifice it) through your lack thereof. And that is the best comment you deserve.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:24 am
“What is it exactly that you see there? Why / how does it bypass conscious perception?”
Listen to Carter speak and then listen to Lieberman. They lull you into a near dream state, with their gentle and melodic tone. This is an organic hypnotic technique. It uses voice tones to stimulate the brain-stem. It matter less what they actually say and more how its delivered. That’s how Lieberman got elected to the Senate the first time. He did his own narration (voice-over) on his TV commercials. He was smart enough not to actually show his face or himself speaking. Most people who voted for him had little idea who they were voting for. They were however, irresistibly persuaded by the commercials.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:28 am
“John, I am going to say this as nicely as I can:”
I believe that is true, Isidor, that that’s as nice as you can say it. I have always been surprised at how often you accuse me of being full of BS when in fact I am making a serious argument as sincerely as I know. That’s partly why I am interested to hear more about why you (and Steve and others) mistrust Carter. Thank you for the left-handed compliment. I don’t think of myself as a genius by any means, but I do try to be honest even when I have to admit a mistake and lose face. You also perceive me as humorless, which is interesting as virtually everyone who has ever known me tells me I’m one of the funniest people they’ve ever met. I am a great bullsh*tter when I want to be, but I think I know when I am and when I’m not. I guess what you mean in #58 is that you think I’m delusional or self-deluded. Always a possibility I guess. I don’t think so.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:31 am
” I have always been surprised at how often you accuse me of being full of BS when in fact I am making a serious argument as sincerely as I know.”
I made a comment about Carter, you made a comment about me being an expert on Bullsh*t. Then, you complain that I have defamed you. More bullsh*t.
PS> The Essenes were said to have techniques for using vocal tones to overwhelm and confuse their advesaries.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:40 am
“They lull you into a near dream state, with their gentle and melodic tone. This is an organic hypnotic technique. It uses voice tones to stimulate the brain-stem. It matter less what they actually say and more how its delivered.”
Got it.
I don’t know about Connecticut. I do know a little about Georgia. I’m from Texas. We tend to be direct, plain-spoken. I spent a week in Georgia once and the people drove me nearly nuts. I’m not talking about the speed of the speech, but the rhetorical “packaging,” the style. It takes extra long to get through an encounter because everything has to be honey-coated, so to speak, to make it more…soothing?
With Joe maybe it’s not regionalism. He drives me up the wall too, actually gets on my nerves, in a similar way. He’s cloying. Where does it come from? Politician-speak? People-pleaser-speak? I don’t know.
Anyway, I think I begin to see what you mean. You know, both guys are accused by critics of being “holy.” And maybe that’s the same thing. Something seems “too good to be true”?
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:46 am
“I made a comment about Carter, you made a comment about me being an expert on Bullsh*t. Then, you complain that I have defamed you. More bullsh*t.”
My remark about your being an expert in the art of BS was intended as humor, Isidor. Part of the reason you think I’m humorless is that when you read my posts you are taking everything as serious.
I am not complaining that you have defamed me. I am saying I am puzzled by your perception. I don’t think you called me a liar. But you do seem to think I’m full of BS in the sense of being delusional / self-deluded. Not bitching at you; just puzzled by it.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:27 am
“Christians believe they are obligated to NOT judge…Conversely, Jews are very much obligated to judge but to judge fairly…”
No, I’m not really talking about judging (”Judge not that you be not judged.”).
To judge is to assign guilt, call someone guilty. To demonize is to assign evil, call someone evil.
As a Christian, I shouldn’t judge but I do all the time, hopefully fairly, as you said.
To call someone evil and to catalogue all his evils and write books about them and so forth is to go beyond judging IMHO. That whole bit I try to leave to God. Remember that Adam and Eve “ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil” and because of that they scared the Lord, so to speak, because they were becoming like Him
“knowing good and evil.” The only thing that remained was for them to eat of the tree of life to finish the process, and so they were put out of the garden. Judging is discerning “good and evil” and already problematic (from the Christian perspective) in that that’s supposed to be God’s department originally. But demonizing goes well beyond that, well into territory that is not appropriate for humans, for psychological or spiritual if not actually religious reasons.
August 2nd, 2007 at 11:16 am
John, to call someone evil is to judge, isn’t it? Am I wrong? If I say Adolf Hitler was evil or Nazism was evil, I am judging Hitler and his movement. This is judging, isn’t it? If I say Hitler was evil, I am not demonizing him. Or am I? According to my on-line dictionary, to demonize is to represent as evil or diabolic.
Diabolic means having the qualities of a devil; devilish; fiendish; “outrageously wicked.”
Unlike Christians, Jews do not believe in a devil.
Therefore I really do not accept this term demonize unless I am to define it as someone who is “outrageously wicked.” Wasn’t Hitler outrageously wicked? He was responsible for the deaths of some 50 million souls.
As a Jew, I do not however believe Hitler was possessed by demons. To say that someone was “demon possessed” it seems to me is to minimize his personal guilt.
What was the old Flip Wilson saying? “The devil made me do it!”
August 2nd, 2007 at 11:29 am
I make a distinction between “judge” and “demonize.” That’s all.
August 2nd, 2007 at 3:20 pm
it’s stupid to think it’s the settlements.
that debate is dead. the settlements were uprooted from gaza, and obviously things got worse not better. clearly, the settlements are not the problem. crystal clearly.
August 2nd, 2007 at 4:06 pm
No. What is crystal clear is that simply removing the settlements is not the solution.
Was there anyone who seriously believed that the situation would spontaneously get better by itself, i.e, unaccompanied by serious peace negotiations, and without even any coordination between the IDF and Abbas regarding withdrawal?
August 2nd, 2007 at 4:09 pm
it’s stupid to think it’s the settlements.
that debate is dead. the settlements were uprooted from gaza, and obviously things got worse not better. clearly, the settlements are not the problem. crystal clearly.>>>>
YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT!
August 2nd, 2007 at 4:15 pm
“Judging is discerning “good and evil” and already problematic (from the Christian perspective) in that that’s supposed to be God’s department originally.”
that’s interesting, theologically.
as a jew, i don’t see the garden of eden story as a fall, or man disobeying g-d, or anything like that. it’s simply the story of human evolution.
humans ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thus being aware of that distinction. which is a blessing and a curse.
so for me, distinguishing between good and evil is not only not problematic, it is the very thing that makes us human. to give that up is to become an animal.
August 2nd, 2007 at 4:16 pm
John wrote: “Was there anyone who seriously believed that the situation would spontaneously get better by itself, i.e, unaccompanied by serious peace negotiations, and without even any coordination between the IDF and Abbas regarding withdrawal?”>>>>>
Abbas is an unregenerate Holocaust denier, Muslim jihadist who calls for the murder of innocent Jewish women and children, financier of the Munich massacre and arch-terrorist Yasser Arafat’s right hand man.
Again, the difference between Christians and Jews? Christians believe in the goodness of mankind, in redemption of the most debauched, retrograde and degenerate.
John would have us negotiate with criminals, murderers and gangsters in the the vain hope that the murderer would see the error of his ways.
August 2nd, 2007 at 4:18 pm
“No. What is crystal clear is that simply removing the settlements is not the solution.”
so removing the settlements is not sufficient to achieve peace. is it even necessary? no, settlements remained in gaza and that didn’t prevent peace with egypt and israel.
so they are not necessary, and not sufficient. in truth, they have nothing to do with peace. all that is needed is ARAB WILL.
August 2nd, 2007 at 4:36 pm
it is the very thing that makes us human.
I agree. The story is about what humans are like, how they came to be that way. There were two trees. One conferred moral consciousness. The other immortality. To have eaten of both would imply equality with God. Humans are the creatures who partook of the one tree but were prevented from eating of the second. No fall, no sin, no curse.
I still think there is a difference between judging and demonizing.
August 2nd, 2007 at 4:50 pm
“all that is needed is ARAB WILL.”
One of the essential ingredients. Absolutely.
August 2nd, 2007 at 5:08 pm
“all that is needed is ARAB WILL.”
John wrote: One of the essential ingredients. Absolutely.
a real voice for peace, look how John uses your own words against you! Learn from your mistakes. Please. “Arab will?”
August 2nd, 2007 at 5:10 pm
sure, judging is neutral and demonizing is negative. also judging implies (to me) a more internal process, whereas demonizing is a external, public thing. you can judge silently, to demonize you must trash talk someone.
what else is essential and missing? nothing but arab will, i think.
August 2nd, 2007 at 5:30 pm
“You also perceive me as humorless, which is interesting as virtually everyone who has ever known me tells me I’m one of the funniest people they’ve ever met.”
Yes, but were you trying to be funny?
August 2nd, 2007 at 5:47 pm
To me, demonizing implies making someone out to be worse than they really are, i.e., not just saying they are very, very bad, but pretty much making demons out of them, unclean spirits, supernaturally evil creatures, etc.
Essentials? Arab will. Israeli will. The will of both sides demonstrated in sitting down to negotiate seriously. On the Arab side demonstrated by significant, sustained reduction (at least) of terror attacks on civilians. On the Israeli side demonstrated by significant, sustained reduction (at least) in new settlements.
August 2nd, 2007 at 5:49 pm
Yes I was trying to be funny. Were you?
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:02 pm
Yes. And maybe you do come off as funny in person. I am not the one to say. I can say this: I have sat in courtrooms wherein the Judge was unfunny and yet people laughed — out of courtesy or nervousness. I have seen this also happen with teachers, for much the same reason, namely, “alpha-syndrome”.
In written form, you lack comedic skill. Just calling me an expert in bullsh*t who should write a book on the subject may have been said in jest but was not amusing. When a quip or insult is blatantly un-amusing, one should not expect the reader(s) to assume it was said jokingly.
In the future, if you are going to consume my time with jokes, please see to it that they are funny. Thank you.
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:11 pm
Oh dear, dear. I wouldn’t have thought someone who billed himself as the Grand Rebbe Cornelius Trollstein would be quite so touchy about my teasing him about being a BS expert or as a golem or whatever. I’ll put it as nicely as I can, Isidor. You’re not the easiest person to get along with. You won’t take “yes” for an answer!
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:14 pm
Tell you what. I’ll start putting emoticons in to alert you to the presence of humor or irony.
)
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:08 pm
Re: “Grand Rebbe Cornelius Trollstein”
This is not BS because it was not meant to be taken seriously. Sort of like ‘Cleopatra’ or ‘Princess Diana Versace’. I called Mr. Carter a BS-master in the true form of the phrase.
Re: “Won’t take yes for an answer.” Finally, something clever. Is it true? maybe on some level–I am so used to being actively denied whatever modest goals I may have that you may have a point. I probably can’t be 100% objective about myself either.
Re: Emoticons:
Please don’t. If you have to ask, you can’t afford it, as the old saying goes. Your little alter-ego icons are not only idolotry (and to the Grand Rebbe too) but they do nothing to render your verse more comical.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:36 pm
This is not BS because it was not meant to be taken seriously.
Aha. Here’s the problem. There are two different meanings or usages of the word BS. The fun kind, and the serious kind, which is essentially lying. Yes, the Grand Rebbe business - now it’s P.M. I see - is the fun kind, saying something so outrageous that eventually even the slow-of-wit catch on to the joke. Mark Twain was an expert at that kind of BS. And that was the kind of BS I was referring to when I said you could write a book. When someone says “You’re so full of BS” with that kind in mind, it’s a kind of teasing compliment, an expression of begruding admiration. My intent.
When you say Carter is a BS Jedi, your meaning is the serious kind of BS and you are saying he is a consumate liar. This is what you call the true form of the phrase.
What I did was switch usages on you from serious-BS to funny-BS. Pretty hard to get that across typing into one of these little boxes without facial expressions and so forth to tip you off. Anyway, that’s the situation. Two kinds of BS.
OK no emoticon idolatry. Just consider the possibility of a humorous reading occasionally.
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:33 pm
http://video1.washingtontimes.com/fishwrap/2007/08/exclusive_spencer_on_the_wrath_1.html
EXCLUSIVE: Spencer on ‘the wrath of CAIR’
“Welcome to the address that the Council on American Islamic Relations does not want you to hear,” Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch said Thursday, opening a speech to the Young America’s Foundation that caused CAIR to send a letter Wednesday demanding “that YAF cancel the subject session.
The Washington Times obtained a text of Mr. Spencer’s speech, excerpts of which follow:
It is a common tactic of both the Left and the Islamic advocacy groups in America: to accuse every critic of purveying hatred and bigotry. But I am not intimidated by their threats, or troubled by their smears — because I know I do not advocate hatred and bigotry, but a realistic appraisal of the Islamic jihad threat. …
Look at the threatening letter CAIR’s lawyers, Sandler, Reiff and Young, sent to the YAF about this very talk. This is just the latest example of a larger attempt to silence critics and those who say things about Islam and jihad that they don’t like. Look at the campaigns of intimidation that CAIR has carried out against Paul Harvey, the producers of Fox’s “24,” National Review magazine, and others who have said things CAIR doesn’t like. …
This campaign of intimidation has had its effect. Many mainstream media figures, even those who think of themselves as fearless conservatives, have not wanted to discuss the elements of Islam that jihadists use to justify their actions. … They fear the wrath of CAIR. …
If CAIR succeeds in smearing and silencing all those who dare to speak about the elements of Islam that jihadists use to justify their actions, and who dare to call upon CAIR itself and other groups to go beyond vaguely-worded condemnations of terrorism to real efforts to teach against the jihad ideology in schools and mosques, what chance do we have to resist the spread of that ideology? …
And so I conclude today by asking the CAIR officials … to set aside the weapons of legal threats and intimidation, and the reckless purveying of personal smears and defamation, and enter into a genuine public discussion of the material I have presented here. … Let’s have a dialogue, or a debate, whenever and wherever you say. Or you can sue me now, or sue the YAF, and try to silence me. But you won’t be able to sue or silence all the American people who are deeply concerned about what you are doing. …
In a brief interview with reporters before his speech to YAF’s national student conference, Mr. Spencer was asked what he hoped students would get from his speech. “I would hope that they would understand that not everything is what it appears to be,” Mr. Spencer said, saying that CAIR has “twisted” civil rights rhetoric in order to “advance their agenda.”
– Robert Stacy McCain, assistant national editor, The Washington Times
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:50 pm
Spencer is a tabloid-grade Islamophobe hack. I’m glad CAIR is holding him accountable. Their legal tactics are no different from those used by Abe Foxman and the ADL to put a stop to anti-Jewish bigots. Remember what I said. Never believe polemics against religions written by outsiders. They generally have an ax to grind and usually don’t know what they are talking about. Spencer has zero credentials in Islamics. All he has is Regenery, a rightarded publishing house only too happy to print anything that bashes Islam.
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:58 pm
I’m glad CAIR is holding him accountable. Their legal tactics are no different from those used by Abe Foxman and the ADL to put a stop to anti-Jewish bigots.>>>>
Spencer may be a critic of Islam but your term “bigot” is bigoted in itself, rooted in ignorance, slanderous and unfair. I am a pretty big critic of the ADL. Can you give me any examples of ADL intimidation of anti-Jewish critics which compare to CAIR’s tactics?
August 3rd, 2007 at 7:05 pm
Spencer makes a living publishing Islam-bashing books that are rooted in ignorance, are slanderous and unfair. The ADL takes legal action against anti-Jewish bigots. Look it up.
August 3rd, 2007 at 7:18 pm
“The ADL takes legal action against anti-Jewish bigots. Look it up.
“
Looks like I’m wrong about that and going off half-cocked. They’ve been involved in a lot of lawsuits but looks like that is not one of their tactics. Sorry. But the truth is they don’t need to file suits, because they can just intimidate the hell out of people by issuing public statements on this or that.
From wikipedia on the ADL in a recent lawsuit which the ADL lost for falsely accusing someone of being anti-Semitic:
“U.S. District Judge Edward Nottingham wrote “it is not unreasonable to infer that public charges of anti-Semitism leveled by the ADL will be taken seriously and assumed by many to be true without question. In that respect, the ADL is in a unique position of being able to cause substantial harm to individuals when it lends its backing to allegations of anti-Semitism.”
CAIR doesn’t have the clout, so they resort to legal action.
August 3rd, 2007 at 7:23 pm
John wrote: “Spencer makes a living publishing Islam-bashing books that are rooted in ignorance, are slanderous and unfair.”
Has John read any of his books? No. Then how can John make the absurd charge that Spencer’s books are rooted in ignorance, are slanderous and unfair? Are Islam-bashing books since John has not read any of Spencer’s books. Unlike Steve Klein, who when challenged by John, buys Jimmy Carter’s slanderous book and reads it, John refuses to buy and read any of Spencer’s books. He simply hurls baseless charges against the author.
August 3rd, 2007 at 7:38 pm
Here’s CAIR’s letter:
http://yaf.org/media/CAIR004.pdf
The basis of it, which Fishwrap (!) and Spencer do not mention, is that Spencer is accusing CAIR of “activity that would constitute a federal criminal offense.” They are just holding him accountable for his slander.
I haven’t refused to buy and read any of Spencer’s books. And you have yet to point out a single of line of Carter’s book(s) which you allege to be slanderous. Get a grip, Steve.
Spencer’s two best-known books allege that Islam is the world’s most intolerant religion. Call me suspicious but I smell Surah 9:5 lurking there. I can pull verses out of the Torah out of context that make alleged Muslim intolerance look mild. Spencer needs to find an honest way to make a living. And you need a new hobby.
August 3rd, 2007 at 7:59 pm
Which one of these do you want me to buy, Steve? Gee, you’d never know from the titles that this guy has an ax to grind, would you?
1.
The Truth About Muhammad: Founder of the World’s Most Intolerant Religion by Robert Spencer
2.
The Politically Incorrect Guide(tm) to Islam (and the Crusades) (Politically Incorrect Guides) by Robert Spencer
3.
Religion of Peace?: Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn’t by Robert Spencer
4.
The Myth of Islamic Tolerance: How Islamic Law Treats Non-Muslims by Robert Spencer
5.
Inside Islam: A Guide for Catholics by Daniel Ali and Robert Spencer
6.
Islam Unveiled: Disturbing Questions About the World’s Fastest-Growing Faith by Robert Spencer
7.
Onward Muslim Soldiers: How Jihad Still Threatens America and the West by Robert Spencer
August 4th, 2007 at 2:50 am
1 Chronicles, chapter 21:
1: And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
2: And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beer-sheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.
3: And Joab answered, The LORD make his people an hundred times so many more as they be: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord’s servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel?
4: Nevertheless the king’s word prevailed against Joab. Wherefore Joab departed, and went throughout all Israel, and came to Jerusalem.
5: And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword.
6: But Levi and Benjamin counted he not among them: for the king’s word was abominable to Joab.
7: And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel.
8: And David said unto God, I have sinned greatly, because I have done this thing: but now, I beseech thee, do away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.
9: And the LORD spake unto Gad, David’s seer, saying,
10: Go and tell David, saying, Thus saith the LORD, I offer thee three things: choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee.
11: So Gad came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee
12: Either three years’ famine; or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee; or else three days the sword of the LORD, even the pestilence, in the land, and the angel of the LORD destroying throughout all the coasts of Israel. Now therefore advise thyself what word I shall bring again to him that sent me.
13: And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let me fall now into the hand of the LORD; for very great are his mercies: but let me not fall into the hand of man.
14: So the LORD sent pestilence upon Israel: and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men.
15: And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.
16: And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces.
17: And David said unto God, Is it not I that commanded the people to be numbered? even I it is that have sinned and done evil indeed; but as for these sheep, what have they done? let thine hand, I pray thee, O LORD my God, be on me, and on my father’s house; but not on thy people, that they should be plagued.
http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=Kjv1Chr.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=21&division=div1
August 4th, 2007 at 3:11 am
The primary human blessing is also, ironically, the most profound of human curses.
Unlike the animals of the wild, we have a gift allowing us to database. We have internal databases, essentially our mental skills in memorizing facts and figures. We also maintain external data-bases, such as written material, pictures, computer records and so forth.
Equally unlike wild animals, we are inclined to corrupt our own data — for personal advantage.
God has gifted us with extraordinary skills and equipped us for the next evolutionary step.
We squander this gift and flirt with our own destruction because corruption of data is an especially crude form of attempted ‘time-travel’. “Time-travel” is not permitted and it is not even clear if God has that ability. If he did, then why would God have ‘regretted’ flooding the world? Wouldn’t he have merely changed his mind? We endeavor to change God’s mind for him and thus, place ourselves above the highest laws of the universe.
August 4th, 2007 at 6:45 am
I have listened to The Truth About Muhammad: Founder of the World’s Most Intolerant Religion on audio — Audible.
I’ve got a hard-cover edition of Islam Unveiled: Disturbing Questions About the World’s Fastest-Growing Faith. I also have it on cassette tape. The most often cited and more recent book is The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades). My guess is there is some repetition of Islam Unveiled. I might download it from Audible. I see used copies of his books on Amazon but the prices are not too low yet. A used copy of Islam Unveiled is available at $5.00 plus shipping (probably $3.99). I guess his books are still fairly popular and people are holding on to them. I’ve read Islam Unveiled. I didn’t see Spencer as a bigot in the least. It was a careful, objective study of the more problematic aspects of the Islamic faith. Anyone with an open mind should consider this aspect of the faith.
The Politically Incorrect Guide(tm) to Islam (and the Crusades)
reviews:
By M. D Roberts (Gwent, United Kingdom) - See all my reviews
The cover of this study carries the declaration that the contents refute “popular myths” and reveal “facts” that will not be heard on the news.
From the outset this proves to be very much the case as the reader is taken into a courageous investigation of Islam.
Replete with references as well as quotations and examples direct from former practising, learned Muslims, the claims that Islam is a “peaceful” and “tolerant” religion are examined in considerable depth for a book of this nature.
Many quotes are provided which reveal fundamental differences between the statements made by Jesus Christ and Muhammed. This is done with the declared intent of providing the reader with an opportunity to visualise what is cited as the “fallacy” of those who claim that Islam and Christianity are basically “equal” in their ability to inspire good or evil.
Furthermore, these quotes are provided for the reader to understand that a “distinction” can be drawn between what are described as the “core principles” that guide faithful Muslims and Christians.
Beginning with an examination of the life and character of Muhammed himself, the study proceeds to discuss a plethora of other subjects including the alleged Islamic “oppression” of women, historical revisionism, the Crusades, the purported “dangers” of criticising Islam, “Islamophobia” and “Jihad”.
The reader is provided, in no uncertain terms, with a visualisation of what allegedly faces the US, Europe, the West & indeed the International arena, should we fail to come to terms with the consequences of what is described as the “real” message and implications of Islam, which are purportedly being denied the public by the powers that be.
One former Muslim is quoted as saying that the theory and practice of Jihad was “….not concocted in the Pentagon….it was taken from the Koran, the Hadith and Islamic tradition…”.
This statement is then elaborated and clarified by stating that it is the “divinely ordained duty” of Muslims to fight in the literal sense until man-made law has been “replaced by God’s law”. (The latter being described as Sharia and Islamic law).
Further to the subjects already mentioned, the book analyses a series of issues which many readers will find disturbing, such as the investigation of the much-publicised promise of “virgins” in Paradise to Islamic martyrs.
Many concerns are echoed towards the end of this work, including a call for what is described as “responsible reporting” from the media and honesty from law enforcement officials about jihadist attacks in the US. This is made whilst still recognising the need to confront an official fear pertaining to vigilantes who would victimise innocent Muslims should certain information be publicised.
Concern is also expressed with reference to the post September 11th statement by US President Bush who warned the world that “…you are either with the terrorists or you’re with us…”. The book alleging an official refusal to acknowledge who the terrorists really are and what they are fighting for that has subsequently seen the US administration still counting as friends and allies, many states where jihadist activities are extensive.
Many will perceive this book and it’s message to be highly contentious and perhaps even offensive, but I feel that it is required reading at this time, irrespective of the reader’s personal views. Thank you.
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1,225 of 1,658 people found the following review helpful:
Fantastic!, July 28, 2005
By Rebecca Bynum (United States) - See all my reviews
If you really want to pierce the fog, take a breath of sanity and begin to see through the all-pervasive propaganda about Islam, this is the book you’ve been looking for.
Don’t wait, run to the bookstore and buy it today! Buy two or three for friends and have one on hand to loan out. When Islamic pc propaganda starts running out of the mouths of your friends, you will want a handy way to staunch the flow.
Every major pc myth about Islam is exploded in the fantastic, straight forward, easy to read, no-nonsense book.
A great read and sure to be a bestseller. America needs this book now!
August 4th, 2007 at 7:29 am
Anyone who wastes his time writing books arguing that one religion or one culture is better than another is a complete idiot and a fool. These ideas are like disputations out of the 12th century.
How can you believe this stuff on Jihad Watch and FrontPage? I know almost NOTHING about Islam, and even I can see through it. Do you believe everything these guys say without questioning it? Spencer has ZERO qualifications or credentials in Islamic Studies. None! He obviously does have an agenda, however. (Do you think?) So why would you believe anything he said???
9-11 was all the excuse the anti-Muslim bigots needed to go into high gear bashing Islam. It’s now an industry. Don’t be taken in by these people. The crap they write is the equivalent of Der Stürmer or The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. Every bit as reliable. And don’t ask me to prove it because I already have. Surah 9:5 is their meal ticket.
Islam is not the danger we face, Steve. Our own, homegrown bigotry is what threatens to destroy this nation, by destroying our own values, our tolerance, and our own simple decency. Go look up the definition of “bigot” and tell us what you find. I think you will see that such books as Spencer writes, his whole anti-Islamic agenda, is the very definition of bigotry.
I’m glad CAIR is starting to hold him accountable.
August 4th, 2007 at 7:42 am
“And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.”
What do we say? I’ve got your number? To “have someone’s number” is to have power over them. This is a widespread folk belief. Fear of the image or photography, for example. It could be that in traditional societies numbers themselves were thought to have mystical significance. I like your idea about “time travel.”
August 4th, 2007 at 8:46 am
Steve, I’ve noticed one of Robert Spencer’s tricks is to take Surah 9:5 out of context, ignore the many verses that say the exact opposite of his purported interpretation, and then attempt to hide behind the supposed ‘doctrine of abrogation,’ naskh, by claiming that 9:5 ‘abrogates’ all the rest.
As a matter of historical fact, no Quranic verse has ever been ‘abrogated’ by another.
For one thing, there has never been any agreement among commentators as to which verse or verses were supposedly affected by naskh. It is beyond effrontery for Mr. Spencer to declare that any specific Quranic verse is ‘abrogated’ by any other, as no two Muslim scholars have ever been able to agree on such a thing.
For another, some hold that it simply refers to situations where historical facts cause a shift in understanding from general to specific or from direct prohibitions to exceptions, conditions. In that sense, it is no more than a general principle. Perhaps the best way to understand it (see Surah 2:105-6) is to understand that the Quran is represented as ‘abrogating’ in some respects both the Hebrew and Christian scriptures.
A couple of Spencer’s books are from a Catholic perspective, attempts to prove that Roman Catholic Christianity is more peaceful or more tolerant than Islam. I don’t doubt that some ‘forced coversions’ have taken place. But I will guarantee you that more Jews have been forced to be baptized by European Catholic bishops than were ever made to undergo ‘forced conversion’ at the hands of Muslims.
I’m not trying to get into his game of comparing, but to show you how ridiculous the whole enterprise is. When we try to look at other cultures and religions as outsiders, we almost invariably do so unaware of all the peculiar or objectionable aspects of our own religion and culture which hide in our blind-spots. It’s exceedingly difficult to be unbiased because most of it is beneath our awareness.
August 4th, 2007 at 10:00 am
No, I agree with you John, the Catholic church, the popes, the bishops, the cardinals, etc., will have much explaining to do in the world to come. The Church has much innocent blood on its hands. I do not believe the Church today is as “physically” violent as in the past, however I’ve not seen the Church acknowledge the crimes that the Church itself committed. Have you. It seems it’s more an admission that individual Christians were guilty of crimes. The reason for this as I understand it, is the Church is a spotless and a blameless institution as much the popes are infallible in matters of faith and morals. Clearly to me this is rubbish.
According to what I’ve read, Robert Spencer has made an intensive study of Islam, the Qur’an, the Prophet, the Sunnah, the four major schools of Sunni Islamic Jurisprudence — Shafi’i, Maliki, Hanafi and Hanbali schools — etc. for some 27 years. Sunnis comprise roughly 85% of all Muslims. I think this qualifies him to weigh in on the topic.
From my discourse with Muslims in the UK and elsewhere on-line and from my reading, it would appear that according to many if not most Islamic scholars, the Christian and Hebrew scriptures that have come down to us today have been corrupted and therefore are not reliable. I believe the Qur’an itself makes this assertion. I have heard and read this over and over and over again by devout Muslims. This is why, for instance, they do not accept the Biblical account of Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac. According to Islam it was Ishmael. So, how do you square these two points of view? You don’t square them. Obviously, Muslims believe the Jews perverted and corrupted the Torah. It’s full of lies according to the predominant Islamic view.
August 4th, 2007 at 10:56 am
Does Spencer read Arabic, btw, or is he dependent on translations? No self-respecting scholar would even think of writing so much as a paper about Islam without being able to read Arabic. Without that ability, you simply have to take other people’s understanding and work at that level; never with the original sources. It’s a joke. Can you even imagine a rabbi who would attempt to give a Dvar Torah without any knowledge of Hebrew and Aramaic, completely unable to read it and dependent on English translations? He would be fired and for good reason.
To my knowledge, Spencer has never spent a day in a university program of Islamic Studies, and so none of his views have been formed under the guidance of a teacher who has challenged him or pointed out errors. This is a highly specialized sholarly field, and one doesn’t become competent in it by studying on his own, certainly not competent to write books. He’s an amateur even after 27 years. When genuine scholars write books, the books are based on papers they have written and read at academic conferences where they are discussed and critiqued. When they publish those papers in academic journals the papers are peer-reviewed for the editors by other experts who critque them for accuracy and depth of research. To write books on academic subjects you have to earn your right to speak by paying some dues, starting with getting an earned advanced degree in the field. Associate professors write books on their path to tenure after several years of just writing papers or by publishing parts of their dissertations. Professors write books after years of teaching and research and reflection. Spencer has cut to the front of the line, so to speak, and has written at least seven books he has no qualifications to write other than his own very obvious prejudice. Pick one of his books if you like and I’ll buy it next month when my book budget is in the black. But I hope you won’t waste any more money on them yourself.
Yes, what you are describing and what Spencer calls ‘abrogation’ is supercessionism, the idea that the Jewish and Christian scriptures have been superceded by the Quran, not because they are “full of lies,” but because they have allegedly confused the message.
August 4th, 2007 at 11:49 am
Back to the topic of judging, Steve, do you know anything about mussar? I found this website:
http://www.actt613.org
And I noticed they have a module of spiritual exercises having to do with ‘judging favorably,’ which I found extremely interesting:
http://www.actt613.org/3.html
This makes me think the Jewish and Christian concepts are not so far apart as perhaps you (or I) thought.
August 4th, 2007 at 11:59 am
John wrote: To my knowledge, Spencer has never spent a day in a university program of Islamic Studies>>>>
I am curious John, do you feel the same about Professor Daniel Pipes? Though Dr. Pipes’ and Spencer’s views on Islam are distinctly different in some fundamental respects, you may also be aware that Council on American Islamic Relations, and other “mainstream” Muslim advocacy groups also routinely characterize Dr. Pipes a bigot, a hater, an Islamophobe in addition to Spencer.
I e-mailed Robert Spencer the following two questions. I believe they are relevant to our discussion. The second question, in response to your inquiry:
Dear Robert,
I’ve been debating a regular contributor to a “Jewish Voice For Peace” blog. I’ve got two questions.
1) Have you ever been invited, or have you invited any reputable left-leaning scholar or ‘apologist’ (of Islam) to debate? John Esposito comes to mind. I suspect there are many.
I looked on Youtube and found nothing other than interviews you’ve done and “refutations” but no “one on one” debates?
Spencer: I have never been invited to debate by such a person.
I have an open invitation to debate anyone. I’ve invited many — Carl Ernst, Omid Safi, Ahmed Afzaal, Akbar Ahmed, etc. — but they have all declined.
2) If you were to recommend just one of your books to the interested skeptic, which would it be? The Politically Incorrect Guide(tm) to Islam (and the Crusades) ? Thanks. Steve
Spencer: “Muhammad.”
August 4th, 2007 at 1:47 pm
John: “And I noticed they have a module of spiritual exercises having to do with ‘judging favorably,’ which I found extremely interesting”
John, I was speaking earlier of judging unfavorably, something you are apparently not comfortable doing? I believe judging unfavorably is an absolute necessity. Again, perhaps this is one the difference between many Christians and Jews?
But I don’t understand this. Jesus had no difficulty judging some — though not all — of the religious leaders in his day unfairly.
Isn’t Jesus’ life the example for the Christian believer? Isn’t this what it means to be “Christ-like?”
August 4th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
Pipes and Spencer are alike, except one has a doctorate and is a highly-qualified specialist in medieval Islamic history (PhD, Harvard). Pipes obviously reads Arabic and probably Persian as well. He has also spent time in the Middle East. He has the kind of credentials I like when I read a book on Islam or whatever.
You are a little off in your memory of what I said about judging. I said that though I often judged people, I try not to demonize them. Judging is necessary but not without risks.
Did Jesus unfairly judge the religious leaders (Saducees, high priests) of his day? I don’t know that we know that. It’s pretty evident they judged him. What makes you say he judged them?
The saying “Judge not that you be not judged” comes from a sayings source which circulated independently, I believe. It is full of isolated sayings which are very cryptic and often have a gnostic flavor. That could be one of them. I don’t think it means one should abandon their moral judgement, but be aware that spiritual pitfalls are involved because it is so easy to be unaware of one’s own shortcomings while judging others.
“I believe judging unfavorably is an absolute necessity.”
Look at the ACTT module on judging favorably, if you haven’t. On p. 4 it says the Torah obligates us to ‘judge favorably’:
בצדק תשפוט עמיתך
“You shall judge your fellow man with righteousness” (Vayikra/Leviticus 19:15)
This verse obligates us to give someone the benefit of the doubt when we see him performing an action that could be interpreted in his favor. (Rambam, Sefer Hamitzvos, Positive commandment 177; Chinuch 235)
August 4th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
Do you have high speed Internet provider John? If so, watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYSWzcwNEhA&mode=related&search=
August 4th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
I wrote: “I believe judging unfavorably is an absolute necessity.” (I should add, when necessary or morally required.)
You responded: “Look at the ACTT module on judging favorably, if you haven’t. On p. 4 it says the Torah obligates us to ‘judge favorably’:
בצדק תשפוט עמיתך
“You shall judge your fellow man with righteousness” (Vayikra/Leviticus 19:15)
This verse obligates us to give someone the benefit of the doubt when we see him performing an action that could be interpreted in his favor. (Rambam, Sefer Hamitzvos, Positive commandment 177; Chinuch 235) >>>>>
Of course we should give people or “the Other” the “benefit of the doubt.”
I believe God gives us the “benefit of the doubt.” But clearly, when some one repeated does evil and violence, condemnation is in order, is it not? The commandment to judge your neighbor in righteousness means you shall do no injustice in judgment. You shall not be partial to the poor, nor defer to the great. In other words, you shall be impartial in your judgment. This is no command to judge your neighbor or your enemy “favorably.”
John wrote: “Did Jesus unfairly judge the religious leaders (Sadducees, high priests) of his day? I don’t know that we know that. It’s pretty evident they judged him. What makes you say he judged them? ”
I did not write that he “unfairly” judged the religious leaders in his day. I only said he judged them. Clearly he did. Not only did he judge them, he condemned them; some of them. Have you ever read the twenty third chapter of the book of Matthew. Do you think the writer got all of this wrong? Doesn’t it accord with much in the other synoptics?
August 4th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
Spencer on Fox with CAIR spokeswoman, Edina Lekovic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9V2IItfu6A
August 4th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
Sorry, Edina Lekovic is the spokeswoman for the Muslim Public Affairs Council
August 4th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
John wrote: “Does Spencer read Arabic, btw, or is he dependent on translations? No self-respecting scholar would even think of writing so much as a paper about Islam without being able to read Arabic. Without that ability, you simply have to take other people’s understanding and work at that level; never with the original sources. It’s a joke. Can you even imagine a rabbi who would attempt to give a Dvar Torah without any knowledge of Hebrew and Aramaic, completely unable to read it and dependent on English translations? He would be fired and for good reason.”
This is absurd John.
August 4th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
“I did not write that he “unfairly” judged the religious leaders in his day. I only said he judged them.”
But isn’t that what you are saying here:
“Jesus had no difficulty judging some — though not all — of the religious leaders in his day unfairly.”
But anyway, he certainly did speak against them words of judgement much in the manner of the ancient prophets. “Woe to you scribes, Pharisees, hypcrites!” We know from the Qumran texts that even during Hasmonean times Jerusalem was a foment of Jewish sects (Pharisees, Essenes, others?) battling the Temple authorities (Saducees?, others?) over issues relating to Hellenism, occupation, etc. Jesus also had his issues with various groups of the day. It’s hard to know exactly what was going on. For example, there are places in Matthew where Jesus seems to call for an ever more strict type of Torah observance than the Pharisees. (I am not one who believes that the Saducees really did not accept resurrection of the dead, btw.) The four gospels because they were written at different times reflect different stages along the way moving towardthe separation of the Christian sect from the synagogues in 90 CE. As time went by, the issues changed and were reflected in the gathering of traditions to produce the different gospels.
August 4th, 2007 at 5:55 pm
This is absurd John.
No, it isn’t. Anyone who specializes in a given area study, be it Asian political science, or African economics, or Turkish history, has to be able to control the relevant languages so that they can do original work not dependent on the translations of others. If you get a degree in Asian Studies you might take Chinese or Japanese or both. If you study African economics you would take one or more African languages. For a man to write seven books about Islam and not to be able to read Arabic (and Persian and maybe Turkish) is a shame. Pitiful.
Pipes at least has paid his dues and is qualified to speak/write.
August 4th, 2007 at 6:16 pm
“Jerusalem was a foment of Jewish sects… ”
Strike “foment”
Read “hotbed”
August 4th, 2007 at 6:28 pm
Steve, the funny thing is that my supposedly-Christian ideas about not demonizing others is based on the idea that humans are made in the image of God (btselem ‘elohîm) from Genesis/Breshit 1:27. I don’t think judging is supposed to go that far. As the kid said, “God don’t make no trash.” There are people in whom the image of God is so deeply buried that no one has caught sight of it since they were very small, innocent children. But even those individuals are still not demons / evil. To call them that is to mock God IMHO.
August 4th, 2007 at 7:16 pm
“Afghan poppy crop harvest sets another record Nation produces nearly 95 percent of world’s heroin supply, U.S. official says”
msnbc–
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12480416/
August 4th, 2007 at 8:23 pm
But anyway, he certainly did speak against them words of judgement much in the manner of the ancient prophets. “Woe to you scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites!” >>>>
I’m not sure any of the ancient prophets hurled invectives like these against his fellow Jews except perhaps Moses who yelled, “You rebels!”
It was for this outburst that Moses was not permitted to enter the land because he did not treat God as holy before all the people.
I would say Jesus words were a bit intemperate.
August 4th, 2007 at 9:35 pm
“Woe to you…” (’i-lakh) “Too bad for you?” Pretty mild, Steve. The prophets? Well, Amos called the rich women of Israel “cows of Bashan” (4:1) which is a pretty hot invective. I seem to recall a number of woe-to-you’s all through Isaiah and Jeremiah. How about Jer. 13:27 Ezek. 16:23. Amos 5 and 6. I guess Jesus was angry.
August 5th, 2007 at 4:53 am
It’s not simply “woe to you.”
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisee, hypocrites!, vipers, blind men, For you are like white washed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and uncleanness; you travel about the land and sea to make one proselyte; when he becomes one you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves, blind guides, you fools and blind men, hypocrites!, You blind Pharisee, You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you escape the sentence of hell?”
August 5th, 2007 at 6:53 am
Mr. Jesus was alleged to have said:
“Woe to you scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites!”
Steve Klein said:
“I’m not sure any of the ancient prophets hurled invectives like these against his fellow Jews . .”
and earlier said:
“I cannot believe your callousness! You are a callous Jew Isador.”
and–
“Because you are little doubt a self-loathing Jew . . . You are a weak Jew Mr. Isador. . . .”
Recap:
“Woe to you scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites!”
‘Scribes’ are merely the record-keepers. I wonder what he had against them. ‘Pharisees’ are my distant relatives (The Farashes). ‘Hypocrites’ are not a demographic group at all but merely a summary reiteration of ‘Scribes’ and ‘Pharisees’, perhaps they were ‘Pharisee Scribes’.
“You blind Pharisee, You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you escape the sentence of hell?”
As (possibly) the closest modern-day equivalent there is to a ‘Pharisee Scribe’, I can tell you with metaphysical certitude that I can not and have not. However, the “sentence of hell” being described is not necessarily in the after-life.
And so I repeat from above:
“‘The primary human blessing is also, ironically, the most profound of human curses.
. . . we have a gift allowing us to database {scribe}. We have internal databases, essentially our mental skills in memorizing facts and figures. We also maintain external data-bases, such as written material, pictures, computer records and so forth.
Equally unlike wild animals, we are inclined to corrupt our own data — for personal advantage.”‘
Therefore, I submit (in contradiction to Mr. Jesus) that God sent the scribes while evil and self-glorification inspires propaganda.
August 5th, 2007 at 8:04 am
Yes, you are right. I finally went back and read it. Choice words! I would call the tone prophetic, in the sense that it communicates God’s rage and judgement upon the current scene in very strong language. It is an example of the mitzvah Lev. 19:15, judge rightly, btsedeq tishpat amitekha.
The translation “judge favorably” is an intepretation of “btsedeq” to mean “as a righteous man.” In other words, it takes Lev 19:15 to mean “Judge your neighbor to be a righteous man /to be righteous.” Rabbinical sources here:
http://www.darchenoam.org/ethics/gossip/sources.htm
As for Matt. 7:1-5, I see no inconsistency with this. Those verses I take in fact as a midrash on Lev. 19:15.
If you look through the rest of the Sermon on the Mount, you can see it is full of midrashim on Lev. 19 and other mitzvot.
Speaking in the broadest terms, my belief is that the New Testament itself is essentially a midrash on the Torah.
Specifically, Matt. 7:1-5 seems to have exactly the same point as Shabbos 127b
“Anyone who judges others favorably will be judged favorably” Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Shabbos, 127b (based on interpretation of btsedeq above)
“5. Talmud Bavli Shabbat 127b
The sages teach:
One who judges his friend favorably will be judged favorably. The following story is told:
A man went down from the Upper Gallilee and was hired as a worker for a landowner in the south for three years.
On the day before Yom Kippur the worker came to his boss and said, “Give me my wages so I can support my wife and children.” He replied, “I do not have them.”
He said to him, “Give me produce.” He replied, “I have none.” He said to him, “Give me land.” “I have none.” “Give me animals.” “I have none.” “Give me pillows and covers.” “I have none.”
The worker slung his things over his shoulder and went home frustrated.
After the festivals the employer took the worker’s wages in hand, and along with them loaded three donkeys — one full of food, one with drink, and another with tasty foods — and went to his worker’s house.
After they ate and drank he gave the worker his wages.
He said to him, “When you asked me for your wages and I told you I have no money what did you suspect me of?” “I said perhaps you came across inexpensive merchandise and bought it.”
“And when you said to me to give you animals and I replied that I have none, what did you suspect me of?” “I said perhaps they were hired out.”
“And when you said to me to give you land and I told you I had none, what did you suspect?” “I said perhaps it was leased out to others.”
“And when I told you that I had no produce what did you suspect? “I said perhaps it was not tithed.”
“And when I told you that I had no pillows or blankets what did you suspect? “”I said perhaps he donated all of his property to Heaven.”
He said, “I swear that is what happened. I vowed off all of my property because of my son Hyrkanus who did not go to learn Torah. When I went to my friends in the south they annulled all of my vows. As for you — the same way you judged me favorably, the Omnipresent should judge you favorably.”
There are a number of similar extreme stories on the same page of the Talmud. Rav Aryeh Levin once said: G-d made everything for a purpose. Why, though, create a “krum svara” (Yiddish for twisted logic)? He answered: to be able to judge another favorably, even under extreme situations.” (link cited, Judaism in the Workplace)
So, in terms of one’s own spirituality, it is best to begin one’s judgement of the neighbor “favorably” i.e., to judge him / her as a righteous person. To do otherwise is a spiritual trap, because we see the faults of others so much more cleary than our own. (For example, people readily condemn Israel for human rights abuses, yet they never seem to get around to condemning crimes against humanity of the Arabs). So, that’s the best procedure. Then if they prove themselves guilty through their behavior, do judge them “in righteousness” i.e., justly, fairly, honestly. This was what Jesus was doing in Matthew 23.
August 5th, 2007 at 8:11 am
In regard to Mitchell’s piece: “IT’S THE SETTLEMENTS STUPIC.”
Isador wrote: Mr. Jesus was alleged to have said: “Woe to you scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites!”
Steve Klein said: “I’m not sure any of the ancient prophets hurled invectives like these against his fellow Jews . .”
and earlier said:
“I cannot believe your callousness! You are a callous Jew Isador.” and–
“Because you are little doubt a self-loathing Jew . . . You are a weak Jew Mr. Isador. . . .”>>>>
You’re right Isador. I’m sorry. I’ve not claimed to be a prophet and I do not claim to be any better than Jesus who also had a terrible and unrestrained temper.
No wonder the Jewish leaders in his day wanted his scalp!
Now I’m trying to remember why I said you were callous. Oh, I know. You wrote that some of these Native Americans — though the White man dispossessed them of their ancient lands and their culture — have become rich. Money isn’t everything when you lose your land and your culture Isador.
Another thing. I am still reading about this sad chapter in American History that you dismiss as irrelevant. “Andrew Jackson and His Indian Wars,” by historian Robert Remini:
http://www.amazon.com/Andrew-Jackson-His-Indian-Wars/dp/0142001287/ref=sr_1_1/103-2220455-0644600?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186317684&sr=1-1
Take a look at the reviews. I highly recommend this book to you and to every American. Every American household should have this book in their library or on their book shelf. Like new hardcover editions can be purchased on Amazon for $4.00 or $5.00 plus shipping ($3.99?). Or maybe it is in your public library.
The thing that irritated me about your argument is this. The United States is in the forefront of pressuring tiny Israel to relinquish historic, Biblical, not to mention Mandatory land — re-captured during wars of genocidal Arab aggression — to blood-thirsty savages (yes savages; read Remini’s book; read how Jackson and many Americans and American leaders called Native Americans “savages”).
“Expansionist” America is in the forefront of this immoral pressure, so yes, I think American history is crucial to understanding this conflict.
If you read Robert Remini’s book, you will see striking resemblances between American settlements and Israel’s settlements.
Like Ariel Sharon, Andrew Jackson knew these settlements on American frontiers, were critical to our security against foreign invasion (Spain, Great Britain and France coveted North American land), as settlements were and are even more critical to Israel’s security against invading armies from the east, from the north and from the south but more importantly from the east and north east. As you may know, as Minister of Agriculture, Ariel Sharon led the way in settling the territories; Samaria, Judea and Gaza.
Buy a used copy of Ariel Sharon’s autobiography “Warrior.” Or check it out from your local library. Check out a copy of Remini’s book on Jackson’s Indian wars.
Read Chapter 25, page 355-370 of Sharon’s “Warrior.” In particular page 355-358. Chapter 25 is titled, “Settling The Territories.”
Then read chapter 5 of Remini’s “Andrew Jackson and his Indian Wars,” page 80-93, titled “Sharp Knife,” the name given to Jackson by the Indians. In particular, read page 84-85.
Please read these pages Isador, John and Mitchell. Then get back with me and we can have an intelligent discussion about settlements, American and Israeli.
August 5th, 2007 at 8:13 am
Scribes were ‘doctors of the law’ (soferim, or religious lawyers) I believe, the new ‘class’ which rose to prominence in the Second Temple period.
Another thing which goes to your point about databasing and the corruption thereof: In traditional societies, those who are literate, because they occupy the social levels of power, are suspect. Writing itself is quite mysterius to someone who cannot read, every bit as mystifying as computer literacy is to someone who did not grow up with it as a given. Someone who can write is, like a computer geek, a technocrat, envied but also resented. I have run across this in literature in Steinbeck’s The Pearl and in Anaya’s Bless Me, Ultima.
August 5th, 2007 at 8:58 am
“If you read Robert Remini’s book, you will see striking resemblances between American settlements and Israel’s settlements.
Like Ariel Sharon, Andrew Jackson knew these settlements on American frontiers, were critical to our security against foreign invasion (Spain, Great Britain and France coveted North American land),…”
OK. If Israeli settlers = American settlers, then Arabs = Indians. You seem to say the Arabs are “blood-thirsty savages.” Do you think the Indians were “blood-thirsty savages”? Or, are you saying that the Israeli settlers are more like Indians, the victims of genocidal agression? In that case, the American settlers were the real “blood-thirsty savages” right? Help. Riddle. Why is it hard to follow a Jewish “western”? Because the good guys wear black hats!
August 5th, 2007 at 9:17 am
“No wonder the Jewish leaders in his day wanted his scalp!”
He was a pain in the tuchus, and they wanted him silenced because he was attracting too much notice evidently, stirring up crowds. He was putting the whole community in danger in their eyes. To that end they decided to cooperate with the Romans, threw a fellow Jew to the occupiers to get them off their backs. The Romans and the Jewish hierarchy were both afraid of taking the blame for his death, the effect this would have on the people. The Sanhedrin did the paperwork. The Romans drove the nails. Bottom line: it was the Romans that killed him. Crucifixion was strictly Roman. If the Jews had killed Jesus, he would’ve been stoned to death.
The oldest layers of sayings of Jesus show no issues with the Pharisees. Even in Matt. 23 he doesn’t object to their teachings, but to what they actually do. (“The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.”)
August 5th, 2007 at 9:48 am
John wrote: “OK. If Israeli settlers = American settlers, then Arabs = Indians. You seem to say the Arabs are “blood-thirsty savages.” Do you think the Indians were “blood-thirsty savages”? Or, are you saying that the Israeli settlers are more like Indians, the victims of genocidal agression? In that case, the American settlers were the real “blood-thirsty savages” right? Help. Riddle. Why is it hard to follow a Jewish “western”? ”
It’s difficult to compare the two situations in every detail. First of all, contrary to what Jimmy Carter and other critics of Israel say, Jewish settlers are not colonizers. One does not “colonize” one’s own land. We are settling our ancient, historic, God-given land. Judea and Samaria are filled with towns and villages mentioned in our Bible: Hebron (the City of Abraham and David; home of the Cave of Machpelah; site of David’s first kingdom), Shiloh, Jerusalem, Bet El, Elon Moreh, Kedumim, etc.
White Europeans were clearly colonialists here in North America. Remini and other historians make the point that Americans were expansionist.
Thomas Jefferson was a passionate expansionist. According to Wikipedia, Thomas Jefferson consummated the Louisiana Purchase; the acquisition by the United States of approximately 530 million of French territory in 1803, at the cost of about 3¢ per acre.
At the time, it faced domestic opposition as being possibly unconstitutional because the Constitution did not contain any provisions for acquiring territory, Jefferson (in my opinion rightly) decided to purchase Louisiana because he felt uneasy about France and Spain having the power to block American traders’ access to the port of New Orleans.
Jefferson was the first recorded American leader to advocate Indian removal. It was Jackson who put the idea into action.
Are the Arabs blood-thirsty savages? Obviously some are, perhaps many are and many more celebrate the savagery. When we see a couple of Israeli, off-duty reservists or soldiers take the wrong turn into the city of Ramallah, and are summarily lynched, and mutilated by cheering Palestinian mobs, this is clearly savagery.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/Message.aspx/1787
As long as I live, I will never forget those images. They are etched in my mind. Be-headings, which are routine in the Muslim-Arab world are savage as are any kind of physical mutilation. Wouldn’t you agree? It is true, Indians did practice acts of savagery, mutilations, scalpings, cutting open the bellies of living pregnant women laying their squirming babies beside them to die, etc. American retaliation was severe. Jackson was severe. His slaughters of Indian villages are legion.
I am not saying that American settlers were the real ‘blood-thirsty’ savages. The only thing I am saying is, Americans coveted Native American land and Jackson made sure it was taken from the Indians by force of arms. Indians were then forcibly removed across the Mississippi, mostly against their will. Many thousands died of starvation and exposure. Then we began coveting Native American land west of the Mississippi, contravening our treaties, and Mexican lands were coveted and we appropriated them by means of war. All this was done under the guise or rubric of Manifest Destiny.
Americans have a lot of nerve lecturing tiny Israel about “expansionist” policies. American and British diplomats have A LOT of nerve writing in the introduction to UN Security Council Resolution 242 about the “inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war.”
Jimmy Carter has a lot of chutzpah making a big issue out of this phrase given the fact that his forefathers — mostly consisting of “white squatters and speculators” — forcibly expelled Lower Creek Indians from their Georgia land in order to make room for Carter’s family farm. THE HYPOCRITE! DAMNED HYPOCRITE!
August 5th, 2007 at 10:25 am
“Jimmy Carter has a lot of chutzpah making a big issue out of this phrase given the fact that his forefathers — mostly consisting of “white squatters and speculators” — forcibly expelled Lower Creek Indians from their Georgia land in order to make room for Carter’s family farm. THE HYPOCRITE! DAMNED HYPOCRITE!”
I wonder, has anyone ever asked him to comment on this?
August 5th, 2007 at 10:34 am
“One does not “colonize” one’s own land. We are settling our ancient, historic, God-given land.”
So are the Arabs colonists, then? Hebron and all the patriarchs buried there are sacred to Muslims also. Every aliyah was from Europe and with the blessing of European powers. I do admire the Zionist pioneers when all is said and done, but they were naive and had attitudes typical of white colonials and so to them the indige were more or less “invisible” and in the way of their loftier goal. Can’t you honestly see why people compare their modern-day descendents - the settlers - to colonists? Even if you call the land “disputed” it fits. Colonial powers sent colonists to settle disputed lands too, right? Jackson was afraid of France and Spain. He encouraged the settlers. Minor point, though. I say “occupied” and “colonies” and you say “disputed” and “settlements” - a lot depends on those words, but they are rhetoric in the end.
August 5th, 2007 at 10:36 am
If you read the history of the 1948 War of Independence, you will see that outlying settlements, the Yishuv, provided a bulwark against foreign Arab army invasions in the West Bank, the Golan and the Negev, etc.
General Andrew Jackson wrote: ‘ “….the grand policy of the government ought to be to connect” American settlements in Georgia with those in the Creek territory and Tennessee in order to form “a bulwark against foreign invasion” and stop British and Spanish influence from corrupting the Indians and instigating frontier warfare. But that meant taking land from hostiles and friendly Creeks alike.’
This was Ariel Sharon’s rationale in establishing settlements on the rocky terrain, ridges and mountains which were mostly unsuitable for agriculture, in order to give the coastal plain at least minimal depth and strengthen the corridor.
It is to be remembered that the Jordanians made common cause with the Egyptians to liquidate Israel.
Sharon wrote, “We had had from the Palestinians of this area two decades of the most vicious terrorism and three wars. The years of murders and mutilations that I and others had spent so much of our lives trying to prevent — these were an unforgettable legacy. Under such circumstances, basic intelligence dictated that we act purely on the basis of our own needs… that we look to our security.”
August 5th, 2007 at 10:47 am
“Americans have a lot of nerve lecturing tiny Israel about “expansionist” policies. American and British diplomats have A LOT of nerve writing in the introduction to UN Security Council Resolution 242 about the “inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war.”
The language in the preamble to UNSCR 242 is dependent on the UN Charter, Steve. In pointing out “inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war,” those British and American diplomats, as you put it, are reminding Israel of the commitments it made along with the U.S. and Great Britain when it signed the UN Charter and the Fourth Geneva Convention. Israel did sign and make those same mutual pledges, Steve. In view of the past history of both the US and Great Britain, not to mention France and Spain, I think one has to understand that the Western powers in signing those documents were each and all thereby repenting of sins as red as scarlet and beyond numbering. At that time Israel was a brand new nation, a nation which did not come to the table weighed down with the guilt of centuries of acquiring territory by war like the others. But in 242 by way of invoking that principle the nations are calling upon Israel to honor its word in the oath it swore to uphold that principle. This is not something of which they were guilty for centuries which they decided to spring on Israel while wrapping themselves in holy robes. Israel along with the others pledged to uphold this principle in 1949.
August 5th, 2007 at 11:21 am
If you are seeking my point of view, I will give it. I am by no means in the majority amongst my fellow Jews.
I look at the Arabs as squatters on our land; illegal squatters. Nevertheless, I do not advocate taking their land from them but purchasing it at fair market value. Because I view things in spiritual terms historically, that is providential, I do not see the establishment of nations as haphazard. The late nineteenth century and twentieth century re-gathering of the Jews back into our ancient land was did not happen by chance but by divine providence.
To me, the fact that the majority of early Zionist pioneers were secular Jews, even socialist idealists bespeaks a spiritual lethargy in the Orthodox, rabbinical or religious Jewish establishment. That so few Orthodox rabbis, rebbes and chassidim throughout Europe considered that this movement could be driven by God is very sad to me. Consequently, many selfish, rabbis throughout Europe, like the evil spies of old (Numbers chapter 13), discouraged their flock from immigrating in order to hold on temporal power. As one great rabbi who saw the light wrote: “All their deeds are done for their own benefit, to receive honor or monetary gain Therefore, one should not associate with them, only with those who truly serve God and sacrifice themselves for His name, not for their own selfish gain.”
Consequently, the fact that many of these secular Zionist leaders used tems such as “colonize” in order to elicit the support of the great powers, is very sad indeed. No religious Jew, worth his salt would consider the return to Eretz Israel an act of colonizing.
Hebron and all the patriarchs buried there are sacred to Muslims also? The only patriarch that should matter to Muslims is Avraham, isn’t he? But if Avraham is their father, why do they not behave as sons rather than illegitimate?
August 5th, 2007 at 11:39 am
John: “The language in the preamble to UNSCR 242 is dependent on the UN Charter, Steve. In pointing out “inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war,” those British and American diplomats, as you put it, are reminding Israel of the commitments it made along with the U.S. and Great Britain when it signed the UN Charter and the Fourth Geneva Convention.”
John wrote: “In view of the past history of both the US and Great Britain, not to mention France and Spain, I think one has to understand that the Western powers in signing those documents were each and all thereby repenting of sins as red as scarlet and beyond numbering.”
John, I do not know where you acquire your understanding of repentance.
Repentance involves not only confession and contrition and the commitment to not repeat the sin but also atonement and restitution. If America wants to repent of her past sins and enormities, then she might carve up significant sections of US territory, involving perhaps hundreds of millions of acres of real estate, thereby returning it to its former owners.
I’ve written several times earlier, I would never have accepted UN Sec. Council Resolution 242 and I do not recognize it as having any validity.
That having been said, let’s discuss it from the perspective of so-called international law What do you make of the following?
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf7.html#b
MYTH
“According to Security Council Resolution 242, Israel’s acquisition of territory through the 1967 war is ‘inadmissible.’”
FACT
On November 22, 1967, the UN Security Council unanimously adopted Resolution 242, establishing the principles that were to guide the negotiations for an Arab-Israeli peace settlement. This resolution was a tortuously negotiated compromise between competing proposals.
The first point addressed by the resolution is the “inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war.” Some people take this to mean that Israel is required to withdraw from all the territories it captured. On the contrary, the reference clearly applies only to an offensive war. If not, the resolution would provide an incentive for aggression. If one country attacks another, and the defender repels the attack and acquires territory in the process, the former interpretation would require the defender to return all the land it took. Thus, aggressors would have little to lose because they would be insured against the main consequence of defeat.
The ultimate goal of 242, as expressed in paragraph 3, is the achievement of a “peaceful and accepted settlement.” This means a negotiated agreement based on the resolution’s principles rather than one imposed upon the parties. This is also the implication of Resolution 338, according to Arthur Goldberg, the American ambassador who led the delegation to the UN in 1967.4 That resolution, adopted after the 1973 war, called for negotiations between the parties to start immediately and concurrently with the ceasefire.
August 5th, 2007 at 11:41 am
“Hebron and all the patriarchs buried there are sacred to Muslims also? The only patriarch that should matter to Muslims is Avraham, isn’t he? But if Avraham is their father, why do they not behave as sons rather than illegitimate? “
I think the Muslims even add a couple. You’d have to check wiki on that.
Here’s my take on the Binding of Isaac / Ishamel. Pure speculation on my part. I have no proof.
I have never been able to understand or accept how God (or Allah) could ask Abraham to sacrifice his son, whether Isaac or Ishmael. The following is how I make sense of the two traditions and that whole issue of sacrificing the son at the same time.
The story is in the context of the huge row going on between Sarah and Hagar. Each claimed her own son was the rightful heir. Abraham was caught in the middle and torn apart. He wanted to do right by both women and both sons. I believe that there must have been a version of the story now lost in which Abraham took both sons to the mountain and asked for God to choose between them. How this was done I don’t know. Something like a trial by ordeal maybe. Anyway, the outcome was that God chose both sons to live and Abraham sacrificed the ram.
Now in the distant past there was a parting of the ways between ‘the sons of Isaac’ and ‘the sons of Ishmael.’ The original story was lost. In its place each side remembered only the part of the story about “their” boy, Isaac or Ishmael. But split apart, the story has troublesome aspects now.
In the Bible, there is a story about what happened to Ishmael which fits the outcome of my lost story. Abraham sends Hagar and baby Ishmael out into the desert on an independent ordeal journey, a test of survival. If God approves, the boy will live. He did and he does. God makes a covenant with Hagar and Ishmael and his future sons at that place.
So, basically I think the tradition was one of an ordeal in which God was supposed to choose and that because both boys survived the tradition split apart, though the part about Ishmael survived in altered form in the Hebrew Bible (and the other separate version in the Quran).
Muslims believe they are in fact behaving and living as is proper to legitimate ’sons of Abraham’ as revealed in their holy book.
My belief is that both sons were/are legitimate and that their descendants need to learn how to share the land, to live in it together as their ancient ancestors did (except in peace this time).
August 5th, 2007 at 11:51 am
“If America wants to repent of her past sins and enormities, then she might carve up significant sections of US territory, involving perhaps hundreds of millions of acres of real estate, thereby returning it to its former owners.”
She might. She hasn’t. Long way from 1849 to 1949. Practicalities enter in. You know from your time spent in the yeshiva that one of the underlying principles in cases of lost property is the practicality of finding the owner and returning it to him in usable condition, e.g., lost fruit which is spoiling. Now the property in question here was not lost but stolen. Still practicality is an issue, a huge issue after 100 years. Same thing with the return of Palestinian refugees after sixty years. Restitution can be made, but practicality enters in. It will have to be partly or largely symbolic. As far as our debt owed to the Indians, there are other ways we can help them than simply by returning land to them. They are few in number and trying to preserve their culture. Their children grow up and are stuck there. What the children need is not free land but a way up and a way out. What the elders need is help in preserving their way of life without further interference. That’s part of the practicality. How can we best help them considering their current plight: unemployment, poverty, alcoholism, drug abuse, suicide? I am with you on our debt to them. I don’t think there are simple answers how to repay it in the most helpful way and most practical way.
August 5th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
Your “FACT” quoted from JVL only gives one side of the dispute over 242, which as you know has been endlessly debated.
The debate over 242 as far as the UN is concerned was settled in the advisory opinion rendered in July, 2004 by the International Court of Justice in the Hague relative to the Israeli separation barrier. That decision declared the settlements illegal on the basis of the Fourth Geneva Convention, which says that the occupying power may not introduce any of its own population into the occupied territory.
We have argued over that here countless times ad infinitum ad nauseam. My opinion has not changed and, I take it, neither has yours.
August 5th, 2007 at 12:39 pm
You mean the International Court of Injustice?
Since these judges like the Palestinian Muslims so much, perhaps these esteemed Justices might wish to visit the historic sites of Ramallah and Gaza on a bus with an Al-Aqsa Martyr’s Brigade tour guide / martyr.
August 5th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
“You mean the International Court of Injustice?”
Is your negative opinion of the court itself then the reason you never mention their decision when discussing the issue?
August 5th, 2007 at 1:36 pm
Yes. Europe to me is saturated with Jewish blood.
I don’t have much respect for Europeans. I know there are a few individuals in Europe who are fine people — that are friends of the Jews — but Europe as a whole? No.
To me Europe is one massive killing field. So many atrocities have been committed by Europeans. Europe has so much innocent blood on her hands it can never be washed away or cleansed.
Consequently, I have little confidence in any judgment concerning Jews coming from the Hague.
August 5th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
Steve:
You seem to be saying that the USA’s mistreatment of Native Americans was wrong but necessary and Israel’s similar conduct is also wrong but necessary. You continue to mischaracterize what I said.
I did not say that all 2007 Indians are rich. I said some are and I also said that those particular some were not inclined to remain bitter. Do you argue with that specific statement?
You wrote:
“Another thing. I am still reading about this sad chapter in American History that you dismiss as irrelevant. “Andrew Jackson and His Indian Wars,” by historian Robert Remini:”
I did not say that Jackson’s crimes against Native Americans were generally “irrelevant”. I said they were specifically irrelevant to the Israeli/Arab conflict, just as they are irrelevant to the conflict in Northern Ireland and for that matter, the China/Taiwan dispute.
When my grandparents came to America (while fleeing their own oppression), that does not automatically mean that they bought a share in the dastardly deeds done by Jackson & co. I don’t care if you would like it to be so or if the Native Americans would like it to be so. I similarly reject the often heard claims by certain African-Americans, that Jews were the management behind the slave trade and that somehow creates an ongoing and eternal debt — owed to them by us.
My position is that Israel’s wrongs are not as wrong as people would like them to be, period. Comparing the Arabs to the Native Americans only sets the stage for the Israelis to be wronger then they are in reality. For the umpteenth time, Arabs were displaced from Israel and a similar number of Jews were also displaced from various Arab countries. Is that what occurred between the Indians and whites? Were there pockets of Scotts and Germans living in Mexico and Canada (for thousands of years) who lost their homes and property in the exchange for “winning the west”? Do you have a book on that to suggest?
As for Sharon: He was a bully and a punk. The only possible way he ever got elected was because Arafat was also a bully, a punk and moreover a crazy man, just like Sharon told everyone he was — since decades before.
August 5th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
Isador wrote: “You seem to be saying that the USA’s mistreatment of Native Americans was wrong but necessary and Israel’s similar conduct is also wrong but necessary. You continue to mischaracterize what I said.>>>
No Isador. I am saying Americans have no right to judge Israel. Israel’s “wrongs” do not compare to America’s atrocities.
Isador: “I did not say that Jackson’s crimes against Native Americans were generally “irrelevant”.
Isador please. These were American crimes against Native Americans. Jackson was an American Congressman, an American Senator, an American General, and an American president. Jackson is an American hero and an American icon. Ever looked at the image on a twenty dollar bill? These were not “Jackson’s crimes.” These were America’s crimes.
Isador wrote: “When my grandparents came to America (while fleeing their own oppression), that does not automatically mean that they bought a share in the dastardly deeds done by Jackson & co. I don’t care if you would like it to be so or if the Native Americans would like it to be so.”
Isador, you entirely miss my point. It’s not that your grandparents are responsible for these American crimes and depradations or that you are responsible. It is simply that Americans, American diplomats and American leaders have no business lecturing tiny Israel about her ostensible “crimes” in light of America’s history of thefts, racism, slavery, ethnic cleansings, murders, rapes, despoliations of other peoples lands, etc. America is a criminal nation and she dares lecture Israel?
Why am I having so much difficulty explaining myself?
August 5th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
Interesting thing about the African slave trade. It was primarily an Arab / Muslim operation, at least on African soil. Yet many American blacks have chosen to adopt (at least a version of) Islam.
August 5th, 2007 at 3:25 pm
“…and she dares lecture Israel?
Why am I having so much difficulty explaining myself?”
Because you are not listening? America does not “lecture” Israel. Some Americans including American Jews do that, I suppose, if they take a tone of moral condescencion. “America” speaks only through diplomats, for example at the UN and in talks with Israel. “America” has spoken - not lectured! - on the basis of treaties to which America and Israel are signatories. Israel has legal obligations under those treaties. If/when American diplomats speak to those obligations, they are not doing so in any moral terms other than the morality by which a nation adheres to the legally-binding committments it has made. “America” does not “lecture” Israel. “America” presumes to speak because Israel has freely signed certain treaties.
August 5th, 2007 at 5:44 pm
John wrote: Because you are not listening? America does not “lecture” Israel. Some Americans including American Jews do that, I suppose, if they take a tone of moral condescension.”
Yes, and I am not the only one who detects this note of moral condescension, as you put it.
http://www.freeman.org/m_online/nov03/katz.htm
After their shoddy and demeaning behavior toward Israel in preparing the road map, the Roadmappers are now even ignoring the Arabs’ implacable persistence in the murder campaign. Here is what the US national security adviser told the Veterans’ Meeting at San Antonio on August 25: “Israel must fulfill its responsibilities to help ensure that a democratic, peaceful Palestine State is created.”
Rice also lectures Israel: “It is in Israel’s interests for Palestinians to govern themselves in a state that is viable and peaceful and democratic and committed to fighting terror.”
It is not enough that the US and her strange collection of anti-Israel collaborators issued the road-map diktat to Israel. The complacent remarks of both Powell and Rice suggest that with the Arabs having failed them, the US is now hinting broadly at a new diktat to Israel - and even describing it as Israel’s “responsibilities.”
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/tobin120400.asp
While neither Clinton’s first Secretary of State Warren Christopher nor his successor Madeleine K. Albright ever took the open “bleep the Jews” attitude that made the unctuous James Baker famous, the truth is, their policies were not dissimilar. Certainly, Albright’s willingness to lecture Israel on its interests and how best to protect its security was no less arrogant than anything Baker said.
August 5th, 2007 at 7:11 pm
“Isador, you entirely miss my point. It’s not that your grandparents are responsible for these American crimes and depradations or that you are responsible. It is simply that Americans, American diplomats and American leaders have no business lecturing tiny Israel about her ostensible “crimes” in light of America’s history of thefts, racism, slavery, ethnic cleansings, murders, rapes, despoliations of other peoples lands, etc. America is a criminal nation and she dares lecture Israel?
Why am I having so much difficulty explaining myself?”
Because your position is dis-jointed.
Suppose that my bubby from Austria/Hungary/Poland (who would now be about 100 if she were alive, thank God she does not have to see what’s going on today) were the Senator from Miami Beach. Even better, suppose she were Secretary of State. Would she have any business lecturing Israel in view of Jackson’s (and others) crimes ??
Why is Rice bound by the injustices done by Jackson, who, might have owned a relitive of hers?? Almost sounds like a ‘Forest Gump’ sketch.
When our politicians act in fairness and equitibly, we should give them credit. When they take sides for the wrong reasons and produce unfair policy (and this goes for other places as well, such as Sudan, Bosnia and anywhere), we should get up their arses. The crimes committed by early USA gentry is of no moment to this discussion or this situation.
August 5th, 2007 at 7:29 pm
Why is Rice bound by the injustices done by Jackson, who, might have owned a relitive of hers??>>>>
You keep saying Jackson. Jackson was a public servant. It was America.
If Germany is providing Zyklon-B and other chemical and biological agents to Syria to be used in their war-heads, German history has no bearing in your mind? History does not matter to you?
August 5th, 2007 at 7:34 pm
“Rice also lectures Israel: “It is in Israel’s interests for Palestinians to govern themselves in a state that is viable and peaceful and democratic and committed to fighting terror.”
What’s wrong with that? It’s not in Israel’s interests???
August 5th, 2007 at 7:55 pm
I like this story from our Bible. For me America would be the rich man whom God has truly blessed in every way with an abundance of land, wealth, flocks and resources.
Israel would be the comparatively poor man with a scarcity of land that the Jews truly cherish.
Now the traveler who came to the rich man would be the Arabs who want to destroy the poor man and rob him of what little land he possesses. So they ask the rich man to help them take the poor man’s tiny parcel of land and give it to the poor man’s enemies, thereby leaving the poor man at the mercy of his surrounding Arab enemy neighbors:
2Sa 12:1 Then the LORD sent Nathan to David. And he came to him and said, “There were two men in one city, the one rich and the other poor.
“The rich man had a great many flocks and herds.
“But the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb Which he bought and nourished; And it grew up together with him and his children. It would eat of his bread and drink of his cup and lie in his bosom, And was like a daughter to him.
“Now a traveler came to the rich man, And he was unwilling to take from his own flock or his own herd, To prepare for the wayfarer who had come to him; Rather he took the poor man’s ewe lamb and prepared it for the man who had come to him.”
Then David’s anger burned greatly against the man, and he said to Nathan, “As the LORD lives, surely the man who has done this deserves to die.
“He must make restitution for the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing and had no compassion.”
Nathan then said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel, ‘It is I who anointed you king over Israel and it is I who delivered you from the hand of Saul.
‘I also gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your care, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if {that had been} too little, I would have added to you many more things like these!
‘Why have you despised the word of the LORD by doing evil in His sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the sons of Ammon.
August 5th, 2007 at 9:02 pm
I think its actually good for both Israel and the Jews of the World for Israel to catch a lecture every now and then, from whomever is in the White House at the time.
The lecture does not even have to be sensible but such shows the propagandists of the world that the White House is not a pupet of the Jews.
Win-win.
Everyone wins except Steve.
August 6th, 2007 at 5:34 am
Or maybe David is Israel. And the poor man is Palestinian instead of Hittite. Nathan is the man who tells the unpleasant truth.
August 6th, 2007 at 7:56 am
Isador wrote: “I think its actually good for both Israel and the Jews of the World for Israel to catch a lecture every now and then, from whomever is in the White House at the time.”
This is why I say Isador — to which you take great offense — your position and John’s position is at time indistinguishable.
August 6th, 2007 at 8:12 am
John wrote: Or maybe David is Israel. And the poor man is Palestinian instead of Hittite. >>>>
There is a problem with your theory John. Let’s examine it.
God blessed David by anointing him king over Israel and He delivered him from the hand of Saul. He gave David his master’s wives and he gave to David the house of Israel and Judah and if that had been too little God would have added more things like these.
But in repayment, David despised the word of the Lord by doing evil in His sight. He stuck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took Uriah’s wife to be his wife, and he killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword of the sons of Ammon.
God gave to the children of Israel all of the land of Canaan; and more! Even more will be given Israel probably in the Kingdom (the messianic) age. To give this land that God gifted to the children of Israel — as a father gives a precious gift to his son — is to spit in the face of God.
But we’ve got the rich man in Washington D.C. who has many acres of land in Mexico. I’m sorry in Texas stolen from the Mexicans. Mr. Bush’s Prairie Chapel Ranch is a 1583 acres of fine real estate. A Jew in Israel could only dream of owning a mere ten or twenty acres!
This rich man in Texas is unwilling to take of his immense land or any of the land stolen from Mexico and give the Palestinians a state in Texas.
Instead, like the greedy and hateful White man that he is, he takes from the poor man (Israel) who has barely enough land to protect herself from attack by the six invading armies that invaded our land repeatedly.
August 6th, 2007 at 7:28 pm
The flaw in your logic big enough to drive a Mack truck through, quite apart from the story is this:
“enough land to protect herself from attack by the six invading armies that invaded our land.”
Steve, there ain’t no such thing on this earth as enough land to protect oneself from attack unless you completely take over all the surrounding hostile neighbors. Wherever the border is or may be, there will God has given you Arab neighbors on the other side to deal with. Your concept is sheer fantasy. Land doesn’t protect you. The WB and G are not buffer states for the love of Heaven. What are you talking about???
August 6th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
Your interpretation is quite a stretch. You pile improbabilities on top of improbabilities and even have to drag in George Bush, his Texas ranch, and forcryingout loud the Texas=Mexican war of 1848. Give it a rest, Steve.
There is always a danger in interpreting texts like this to see your side as the good guy and your enemies as the bad guy. That should cause both you and me to pause and reflect. The ONLY thing certain is as I said that Nathan is the man who tells the very unpleasant truth to power. If the truth you are hearing is not very unpleasant, then you are hearing the echo of your own mind and not the word of HaShem. End of reading.
August 6th, 2007 at 7:55 pm
If the truth you are hearing is not very unpleasant, then you are hearing the echo of your own mind and not the word of HaShem. End of reading.
Same goes for me too, of course.
If the truth ONE is hearing is not very unpleasant, then ONE is hearing the echo of ONE’S OWN mind and not the word of Hashem.
August 6th, 2007 at 8:20 pm
As Isidor has said, if God is on anyone’s “side” it is the side of the children because they are innocent. I would only add the Arab and Israeli children. God is on the side of the parents who grieve for dead sons and daughters. God is on the side of the poor and powerless and oppressed. God is one the side of the just who are persecuted by the unjust. And God is on the side of the peacemakers. And He doesn’t care on which “side” of the conflict they are on. The rest of us need to make sure we are on God’s side; not the other way around.
August 6th, 2007 at 8:28 pm
John wrote: Wherever the border is or may be, there will God has given you Arab neighbors on the other side to deal with. Your concept is sheer fantasy. Land doesn’t protect you. The WB and G are not buffer states for the love of Heaven. What are you talking about??? >>>>
WHO ARE YOU? Who are you to question the wisdom of military mem, Israeli generals and American generals John?
What is you military background Mr. Baker? Give us your credentials. What wars have you fought in?
Who in the heck are you? What is your military experience John? What war did you serve in? What is your fighting experience? Who are you?
August 6th, 2007 at 8:30 pm
John, I want your military background. Please. Give us your background. Thanks. Steve
August 6th, 2007 at 8:40 pm
“God gave to the children of Israel all of the land of Canaan; and more!”
Nope. Not on the basis of the Tanakh anyway. Maybe you are getting this from a Ouija board, but the biblical basis of such a claim is very weak. It’s a religious statement, a statement about God. On Thanksgiving Americans all over the country thank God for giving us the land of the free and all the blessings we enjoy here. It does not mean any of them actually believe God spoke to the Pilgrims on the Mayflower and said, “I give you and your descendents this new land, America, the land of the free, and all the blessings of liberty.” It does not mean, for example, that the land is given in any exclusive sense to anyone. When a Hebrew patriarch chose one of his sons to be the heir, he did not thereby disinherit all the other sons. It just means that the chosen, usually the eldest brother, is to preside in dignity over the family when the father is dead. It’s not winner take all. The elder brother gets a double share, but all the others get their own share. Isaac got the double share. Ishmael got a share too.
August 6th, 2007 at 8:45 pm
“Who in the heck are you? What is your military experience John? What war did you serve in? What is your fighting experience? Who are you?”
None of your business, Steve.
“Who are you to question the wisdom of military mem, Israeli generals and American generals John?”
In this country, at least, the military is under civilian control. We don’t - so far - have a military state. The commander-in-chief, for example, is not my commander-in-chief. He is the commander-in-chief of those who wear the uniform. I’ll criticize whatever general I choose. The American ones work for the people; not the other way around. Chill out, Steve.
August 6th, 2007 at 9:05 pm
John wrote: “Your concept is sheer fantasy. Land doesn’t protect you. The WB and G are not buffer states for the love of Heaven. What are you talking about???”
I asked your military background.
You said: “None of your business, Steve.
August 6th, 2007 at 9:07 pm
“I asked your military background.”
Go jump in a lake.
August 7th, 2007 at 5:39 am
Land doesn’t protect. Land has to be protected. Land doesn’t defend. Land has to be defended. What general doesn’t know that?
August 7th, 2007 at 6:26 am
Steve, I do not argue with a historical claim to the land. I do not even argue with a biblical claim to the land. And I do not argue with the need for Israel’s existence and its right to exist (as if anyone even needed to argue such a right!). Where we differ is on the dimensions, specifically your claim to “all of the land of Canaan, and more.” This is insupportable on the basis of history, the Bible, or reason.
The archeology has shown that the Jews never occupied more than the central hill country and never as “a united monarchy” from Dan to Beersheva.
The Bible speaks of the gift of land and children, nationhood in modern terms. It does not say that the sons of Isaac are to occupy the entirety of the land to the exclusion of the other sons of Abraham, the sons of Ishmael. (Show me which verse it is in which YHWH says he will drive out of the land before Joshua the Ishmaelites). And descendents without number? The sons of Ishmael have always been more numerous than the sons of Isaac. Abraham had many sons. ‘Twas ever thus.
In all of history, from the very earliest occupation of the land down to the Bar Kochba revolt, and from the Diaspora down to 1888, and from then until the present day, the Jews have shared the land with other people, many other people. They have never had exclusive possession of the land of Canaan but have shared it. Even when there were no foreigners and occupiers, they shared it with their cousins and brothers. That is the way it was meant to be.
Some of the land. Not all of the land.
August 7th, 2007 at 8:25 am
John wrote: “The archeology has shown that the Jews never occupied more than the central hill country and never as “a united monarchy” from Dan to Beersheva.”
I’ve got no reason to doubt the ‘general’ accuracy of the prophetic account of ancient Israel in our Bible. You search and seek out authors like Neil Asher Silberman and Israel Finkelstein, whom I believe may in fact be skewed by their own personal ideological bent. Take the following five star reviews on Amazon. The last review being a negative one:
1) “The Bible Unearthed, and other books in the same genre’, are long overdue in becoming available to the general public. For decades this material has only been available in dense dry tomes not at all suited to a general readership. Largely this has been due to a distaste in the American palette for anything requiring the rethinking of cherished superstitions, and an almost certain backlash of public opinion against anyone so bold as to question the assumptions of American religiosity……That said, don’t hold your breath waiting for reality to seep into the minds of fundamentalists. Their belief is not grounded in factuality, in the objective and verifiable. Rather, their mind has been infected by a meme and usually nothing short of death or an NDE can cure those suffering from a meme.
For anyone needing assistance in getting the literalist Bible monkey off their back and out of their psyche, this book is a giant step in that direction.
2) As Jew who wishes to know how archeology can be used to debunk Biblical propaganda, I found this book full of useful ammunition.
3) I give this book a high rating not because of the conclusions the author makes - for I am not qualified to judge those, but for the organization and clarity of the book.
The reader should not be surprised to find that the field of `Biblical Archaeology’ can be highly controversial. A major source of conflict is the degree to which the archaeologist relies on the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) as a historical source. There is a spectrum from the `maximalists’ who take the writings as very being accurate and interpret their findings through that lens all the way to the `minimalists’ who disregard the historicity of the writings completely.
Dr. Finkelstein appears to lean heavily in the minimalist direction. While he does not disregard the writings of the Old Testament, he places them in a particular context that makes sense in combination with the physical evidence. He espouses the idea that most of the Old Testament was written/compiled/edited during and after the reign of Jewish King Josiah in an effect to bolster national pride and unity……
(John, I have read this unsubstantiated theory over and over again from skeptics like Karen Armstrong and others. I believe it originated in the early decades of the nineteenth century amongst professional-critical German scholars who classified large parts of the Hebrew Bible as religious myth.)
The most controversial parts of which are that there was not exodus from Egypt, that the Davidic kingdom was tiny and insignificant and that there was never a united kingdom of the twelve tribes.
Does this book present ALL the facts? Probably not. Are the conclusions of the authors correct. Probably not all of them. There is considerable controversy among archaeologists in the field of study. But I did find the book easy to read and understand. I would recommend reading it in combination with other books on the subject.
4) “This book must be used with caution because it pretends to describe what we now really know about archaeology and how it contradicts various biblical claims; however, it does so in a biased and non-objective manner. Contrary opinions in interpreting the new evidence are not discussed, much less given a fair hearing. The book is ideologically driven and should be treated that way by any one who reads it.”
August 7th, 2007 at 10:00 am
“Land doesn’t protect. Land has to be protected. Land doesn’t defend. Land has to be defended. What general doesn’t know that?”
http://www.zoa.org/2003/12/zoa_condemns_ro.htm
December 02, 2003
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: Morton A. Klein, 212-481-1500
Concerning the danger of the 1967 borders, the ZOA noted:
* The late Abba Eban said that the 1967 border would leave Israel so vulnerable that “it has for us something of a memory of Auschwitz.” (Der Spiegel, November 5, 1969)
* A study by the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff in June 1967 concluded: “From a strictly military point of view Israel would require the retention of some captured Arab territory in order to provide militarily defensible borders … [including] control of the prominent high ground running north-south through the middle of West Jordan [Judea-Samaria],” as well as the entire Gaza Strip and the entire Golan Heights.
* Lt.-Gen. Thomas Kelly, director of operations for the Joint Chiefs of Staff during the 1991 Gulf War, said: “It is impossible to defend Jerusalem unless you hold that high ground [in Judea-Samaria]. I look out from those heights and look onto the West Bank and say to myself, ‘If I’m the chief of staff of the Israel Defense Forces, I cannot defend this land without that terrain.’” (Jerusalem Post, Nov.7, 1991)
August 7th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
Some terrain is more advantageous than others, obviously. But then that terrain itself has to be protected. Land does not protect people. People protect land. Anything else is BS.
August 7th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
“The Bible Unearthed” is a controversial book. Parts of it are more controversial than others. The authors did a very good job of presenting the other side, because the other side was based on the archeology of its day. They give you the entire history of Palestinian archeology. Of course, if you don’t read it you have to rely on the word of others. If you are going to do that, avoid at all costs the reviews of readers on amazon. They are nine times out of ten people with axes to grind. Find scholarly reviews or at least reviews like in New York Review of Books, which tend to be fair.
I don’t care if you read the book or not. The burden of proof of the imperial dimensions of the Kingdom of David and Solomon lies with you; not me. David is like King Arthur and so you are trying to prove the dimensions of the legendary Kingdom of Camelot.
If you want to rely on the Bible, then show me the verse in which YHWH promises to drive out the Ishmaelites before Joshua and his army. You won’t find it because it’s not there. Your assumption that the land was given in its entirety to one people to the exclusion of other peoples is bogus, wishful thinking. There’s nothing in the Bible to back it up. Abraham had many grandchildren, some through Isaac, some through Ishmael. The land was given to them all to share.
August 7th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
““It is impossible to defend Jerusalem unless you hold that high ground [in Judea-Samaria]. I look out from those heights and look onto the West Bank and say to myself,If I’m the chief of staff of the Israel Defense Forces, I cannot defend this land without that terrain.’” (Jerusalem Post, Nov.7, 1991″
Please explain why precisely the land you need to defend Jerusalem because its terrain is so advantageous happens to be the only land which the IDF captured in the 1967 war. If it’s so advantageous from a defense perspective, why was it lost? Also Jerusalem itself is higher in elevation than the terrain he’s talking about, if I am not mistaken. There is no high terrain that a general would not like to have, but once he has it it still has to be defended.
Land does not protect people. People protect land.
August 7th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
I don’t want Southern Baptist Jew-haters living on Indian land telling me where I can and cannot live in my G-d given land, that’s all John.
We welcome the stranger and the sojouner but not our Palestinian Muslim murderous enemy.
August 7th, 2007 at 5:59 pm
“Please explain why precisely the land you need to defend Jerusalem because its terrain is so advantageous happens to be the only land which the IDF captured in the 1967 war. ”
israel didn’t just take jerusalem, they took the whole west bank.
and the reason is clear. the westernmost part of the west bank is 11 KM from the sea. a hostile party in the WB could invade israel and divide her in 2 in hours. which is exactly what they tried to do.
August 7th, 2007 at 8:48 pm
“I don’t want Southern Baptist Jew-haters living on Indian land telling me where I can and cannot live in my G-d given land, that’s all John.”
Frankly I don’t think Arab-haters living on land that doesn’t belong to them are in a position to be picky about who breaks the news to them or what their religion is. Better you should hear it from a Southern Baptist than from G-d.
August 7th, 2007 at 8:55 pm
Starting from the pre-1967 borders - which you and so many others now claim to be militarily indefensible - Israel defeated the whole Arab world in six days.
And looking at it from the other side, the land which you and so many others claim will provide Israel militarily defensible borders, was unable to be defended by the whole world and was lost to Israel in six days.
Do you see a pattern here? Land does not protect people. People protect land.
August 7th, 2007 at 8:58 pm
corr:
was unable to be defended by the whole Arab world
August 7th, 2007 at 10:21 pm
“Starting from the pre-1967 borders - which you and so many others now claim to be militarily indefensible - Israel defeated the whole Arab world in six days.”
oh yes, and we always will. but we don’t want to, and we certainly don’t want to be as vulnerable as we would be without the west bank if our neighbors continue to hate us.
August 7th, 2007 at 10:44 pm
That’s like saying Maryland would be vulnerable without Delaware. No defensible borders, doncha know.
August 8th, 2007 at 6:43 am
That’s like saying Maryland would be vulnerable without Delaware. No defensible borders, doncha know.>>>>
John,
Don’t be so glib. There was a time when America like Israel was indeed vulnerable to foreign invasion. I believe I quoted this before from Robert V. Remini, professor emeritus of history and the humanities at the University of Illinois at Chicago. In addition to his three-volume biography of Andrew Jackson, he is the author of biographies of Henry Clay and Daniel Webster, as well as a dozen other books on Jacksonian America.
“(Jackson) wanted a sizable slice of Alabama and Georgia territory stripped from both friendly and hostile Creeks in order to ensure the complete separation of the tribe from the Spanish in Florida.
fact he felt that ‘all the land we have conquered’ should be forfeited….He wrote ‘…the grand policy of the government ought to be to connect’ American settlements in Georgia with those in the Creek territory and Tennessee in order to form ‘a bulwark against foreign invasion’ and stop British and Spanish influence from corrupting the Indians and instigating frontier warfare. But that meant taking land from hostile and friendly Creeks alike.
…It is essential, he continued, that ‘our settlements’ extend to the Mississippi River, for which the Indians should be compensated either with land or money. ‘Our national security require it and their [the Indians’] security require it: the happiness and security of the whole require this salutary arrangement’.”
Andrew Jackson and His Indian Wars by Robert Remini pages 84-85
August 8th, 2007 at 7:41 am
“…It is essential, he continued, that ‘our settlements’ extend to the Mississippi River, for which the Indians should be compensated either with land or money.”
At least Andrew Jackson was more honest about stealing land from its inhabitants than Ariel Sharon. But you are on the right track here, “America like Israel…” Yes, and Israel like America is clearing the land of “savages” and “winning the West” [Bank]. Keep bringing up Jackson and the Indians, Steve. You are making the case against Israeli settlement policy far better than I could. Essentially this policy is “might makes right.” Typical colonialist thinking. We are taking their land because we need it more than they do.
August 8th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
You wrote: Essentially this policy is “might makes right.”>>>>
No. It is essentially “the need for security makes right.” You have to remember, Andrew Jackson was an American hero. He still is to many Americans. After all, isn’t his visage and his likeness on our twenty dollar bill.
According to professor Remini, Americans owed or owe Jackson a debt of gratitude, especially southerners.
Jackson would NEVER ever have done to American settlers what Sharon did to Jewish settlers. He would never have expelled 9,000 American settlers from Georgia or Alabama, from American land.
August 8th, 2007 at 6:30 pm
“Jackson would NEVER ever have done to American settlers what Sharon did to Jewish settlers.”
Think, Steve. Who were the refugees who were driven from their traditional lands, land they were living on when European whites arrived to dispossess them?
Not the settlers, Steve.
30,000 Cherokees.
750,000 Palestinians.
The settlers are the cowboys!
August 9th, 2007 at 5:16 am
Think, Steve. Who were the refugees who were driven from their traditional lands, land they were living on when European whites arrived to dispossess them? >>>>
If it is good enough for America and Americans, why isn’t it good enough for Israel. Will you freely give your property back to the Indians John?
August 9th, 2007 at 6:49 am
“Will you freely give your property back to the Indians John?”
Good morning.
This is the crux of your whole line of reasoning, i.e., Israel in 2007 is no worse than the United States in 1838?
First of all, do you acknowledge the rough parallel between the ethnic cleansing of the Indians in 1838 and the ethnic cleansing of Palestine in 1948? To the latter we should also add the de facto annexation of land captured in 1967 and stolen by settlers since then. In both cases, Europeans forcibly removed native inhabitants from their land and repopulated it with Europeans because they coveted it.
Secondly, the magnitude of the crimes is not the same. The Trail of Tears itself involved about 30,000 Cherokees. The Palestinian Nakba of 1948 involved about 750,000 Arabs. Current victims of the occupation number in the millions. No equivalency there whatever.
Thirdly, a big difference is in the practicality of apologizing and making restitution to the victims. The Indian victims as well as the perpretrators are both dead. Most of the Palestinians and Israelis are still alive.
Fourthly, that most regrettable chapter in America’s history was legal under the laws of the day. You have cited Marshall’s decision. A subsequent decision gave the federal government authority over Indian matters. Governments do not comply with laws that do not yet exist or with treaties that only exist one hundred years in the future. Israel’s Absentee Property Laws were drafted in 1948-49 and were comparable to the Indian Removal Act of 1830 and equally immoral. The Indian Removal Act was based on the law of the day, while the Absentee Property Laws were not. The de facto annexation of captured territory after the 1967 War is of course illegal and a violation of international treaties which Israel had signed back in 1949.
What about restoring lost lands to the Indians? To my knowledge no claim has been brought to the courts. If that happens, they will be ajudicated. Should the sins of the fathers be visited on the innocent? In Jewish law the principle evolved that each person is responsible for his own, not his father’s, deeds. The original victims are dead as well the white settlers and their representatives. All the individuals originally involved have had their cases before The Highest Court. The question is whether current non-Indians owe reparations of some sort to current descendents of the original Indians victims. A court / Congress would have to decide that in a way that is fair to both. Japanese-American victims of WW II internment camps were finally given apologies and victims still living were paid reparations. So reparations are sometimes paid.
It would be hard if not impossible to find an American who would proud of what was done to the Indians in the “winning of the west.” Most if not all are in fact ashamed of it. It is incomprehensible that you seem to be offering the American Indian holocaust as moral precedent and justification for Israel’s policies vis-a-vis the Palestinians? Is that really what you are saying? Or do you just think Americans have no right to speak about Israel’s all-too-similar atrocities? Surely not. “I’m no worse than him” isn’t going to cut it in The Highest Court, is it?
August 9th, 2007 at 7:37 am
Here’s a snip from wikipedia on Ariel Sharon
“When Sharon joined Begin’s government he had relatively little political experience. During this period, Sharon supported the Gush Emunim settlements movement and was viewed as the patron of the messianic settlers’ movement. He used his position to encourage the establishment of a network of Israeli settlements in the occupied territories to prevent the possibility of the return of these territories to Palestinian Arabs. Sharon doubled the number of Jewish settlements on the West Bank and Gaza Strip during his tenure.
On his settlement policy, Sharon said while addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party: “Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Judean) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours… Everything we don’t grab will go to them.” (Agence France Presse, 15 November 1998.)”
I don’t think Andrew Jackson should point his finger and cluck his tongue at Ariel Sharon. And Ariel Sharon should not do the same at Andrew Jackson. When Sharon dies the two of them can argue before Hashem which is worse.
But what is happening before our eyes, on both sides of the Arab-Israeli conflict, is our moral responsibility, regardless whether reparations and restitution have cleared the injustices done by Andrew Jackson.
I am not interested in assigning moral blame to Israel, giving Israel a lecture or a sermon. Blaming and guilt-trips will get us nowhere. I am interested in action. End the occupation. Establish justice and reconciliation. That is our moral responsibility, including those of us in America.
August 9th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
John wrote: “the magnitude of the crimes is not the same. The Trail of Tears itself involved about 30,000 Cherokees. The Palestinian Nakba of 1948 involved about 750,000 Arabs…….do you acknowledge the rough parallel between the ethnic cleansing of the Indians in 1838 and the ethnic cleansing of Palestine in 1948?>>>>
No. Absolutely not. There is no comparison. Israel is blameless. Amerian crimes know no bounds. The United States of America is a bloody city. Isn’t this written somewhere in the Bible about a bloody city? Anyway, today it is America.
August 9th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
I don’t think Andrew Jackson should point his finger and cluck his tongue at Ariel Sharon. And Ariel Sharon should not do the same at Andrew Jackson. When Sharon dies the two of them can argue before Hashem which is worse.>>>>
True but unlike Jackson, Sharon did not swindle the Palestinians out of their land by asking them for a “small slip of your land here,” in exchange for more land east of the Jordan River.
August 9th, 2007 at 12:39 pm
I am not interested in assigning moral blame to Israel, giving Israel a lecture or a sermon. Blaming and guilt-trips will get us nowhere. I am interested in action. End the occupation. Establish justice and reconciliation. That is our moral responsibility, including those of us in America. >>>>>>
Right. Israel should end the occupation just as soon as Americans end their occupation. America will never end its illegal occupation and confiscation of the indigenous people’s land and neither should the Jews. Although in the Jews’ case Jews were also indigenous albeit in smaller numbers than the Arabs.
August 9th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
John wrote: The magnitude of the crimes is not the same. The Trail of Tears itself involved about 30,000 Cherokees. The Palestinian Nakba of 1948 involved about 750,000 Arabs. Current victims of the occupation number in the millions. No equivalency there whatever.>>>>
John, for now I will accept your 30,000 figure as an accurate number. But you are only talking about one act of Indian removal. What about Jackson’s despoliation and removal of the Creek Indians, the Chickasaws, the Choctaws and the Seminoles?
August 9th, 2007 at 7:10 pm
“Israel is blameless. Amerian crimes know no bounds.”
You’ve dug yourself (talked yourself) into a pretty deep hole there, Steve. Not good. No way to reason with someone so obviously wearing moral blinders. The position that anyone is 100% and the other guy is 100% wrong is absurd by definition.
“What about Jackson’s despoliation and removal of the Creek Indians, the Chickasaws, the Choctaws and the Seminoles?”
Still no match for 750,000. But given your position just stated, what does it matter? There could be 7,750,000 Palestinians and 300 Indians and you would still think Israel is blameless and America’s crimes are without number. You have placed yourself beyond the reach of logic.
August 9th, 2007 at 7:12 pm
corr:
The position that anyone is 100% right and the other guy is 100% wrong is absurd by definition.
August 9th, 2007 at 8:06 pm
“America will never end its illegal occupation and confiscation of the indigenous people’s land and neither should the Jews. Although in the Jews’ case Jews were also indigenous albeit in smaller numbers than the Arabs.”
Correct. The situations are not perfectly analogous. Syria-Palestine was the ancient homeland of the Jews, which was not the case with the Europeans who ethnically cleansed N. America.
I also think the Israelis have earned their renewed lease on a portion of the land as the result of their amazingly successful and inspiring nation-building activity since 1888. And there is moral justification for their founding a Jewish national home and refuge besides that. If we needed more proof of the necessity of a country Jews could call home in this world, the Holocaust provided it. Still, Israel should share the land with the other indigenous inhabitants who were more numerous as you say. Competing, legitimate claims as Isidor said. Some of the land; not all. That’s the way it was meant to be.
August 15th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
John seems to be pretty fair-minded with no ax to grind. The other two obviously are plagued with one-sidedness, wearing blinders to views other than their own. Isidor also seems paranoid (oh, god, I brought up that anti-Semitic business… shame on me, but gotta call a spade a spade. Usually when people say something negative against you, you have given them cause to do so. For God’s sake, get the chip off your shoulder.)
Regarding Israel’s evil occupation and brutal behavior toward Palestinians, it should be obvious to anyone who reads Ilan Pappe’s “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine,” or any of Jeff Halper’s writings based on his experience leading the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions, or any of Christian Peacemaker Teams stuff, or B’tselem’s detailed reports such as “Land Grab,” that Israeli governments, right or left, have never intended to make peace but rather to gain all the land with as few “Arabs” in it as possible. Israel’s illegal settlements have been placed in such a way as to obliterate any natural growth of Palestinian villages and especially to prevent several villages becoming contiguous. They are now building an apartheid road, that literally has segregated lanes (Jewish lanes have exits to Jerusalem; Palestinian lanes do not) so as to provide a typically-deceptive form of contiguity to a Palestinian “state” of 4 major bantustans totally surrounded and choked of growth potential by Israeli colonies.
As to our treatment of the Indians and any relevance it may have to Israeli claims to prior ownership of Palestine from 2,000 or more years past: if that claim is valid–that people who were on the land for centuries long in the past, then our Native Americans have a right to 78 or 95% of the US, and the rest of us should just quietly lie down and say “hit me again” when the Native Americans–with the aid of some powerful country, say China–ethnically cleanse all us white European-heritage folk from most of the US. They would have the right to exist as a Native American state, after all. Yeah, that’ll happen..
As to Muslims being violent and Christians peaceful, it was our “Christian” nation that dropped the only nuclear bomb on CIVILIANS… a terrorist act if ever there was one. And one of our Mennonite leaders, while attending one of the Muslim-Christian interfaith conferences we sponsor, was moved to tears by a Muslim lady’s comment that she found all Christians to be violent considering the Crusades, Inquisition, Nazi holocaust, and Bush’s invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. He apologized, and I agree, that we Christians have miserably failed to fulfill Jesus’ greatest, most powerful, and most life-and-world-changing command: “Love your enemies.”
August 15th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
oops! correction:
“As to our treatment of the Indians and any relevance it may have to Israeli claims to prior ownership of Palestine from 2,000 or more years past: if that claim is valid–that people who were on the land for centuries long in the past, then our Native Americans have a right to 78 or 95% of the US, …”
should read:
As to our treatment of the Indians and any relevance it may have to Israeli claims to prior ownership of Palestine from 2,000 or more years past: if that claim is valid–that people who were on the land for centuries long in the past …
now have a right to “redeem” that land from its present occupants–…
then our Native Americans have a right to 78 or 95% of the US, …
September 5th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
Let me correct somethings here. The Jewish claim to Israel, the ancestral home of the Jewish people is NOT 2,000 years old, thats a silly mistake. Its more like 3,000 years or better. Its just that Zionism is the world’s oldest (and slowest) national liberation movement. The Jewish claim to the land of Israel has been ongoing, constant and un-abated since the Roman expulsion. It was never abandoned, through all of the sucessive invaders and occupiers, including the Arab conquerors and usurpers. It just didn’t accomplish the goal of restoring the Jewish people to their land until historic times.