Sun 5 Aug 2007
Last week, I reported on a petition circulating opposing a bill in the Knesset that would affirm the Israel Land Authority’s practice of leasing Jewish National Fund land in Israel to Jews only. I offer here some background on this issue…

It is often said that a major sign of discrimination against Arabs in Israel is that the cannot buy land. It is important to note that Jews can’t either. The exception is the 7% of land that is privately owned (about half of which is owned by Arabs and half by Jews), though this land very rarely changes hands. Instead, the practice governing the remaining 93% of the land, which is administered by the Israel Land Authority (ILA), is that it is leased, for terms that can be short or up to 99 years.
Of course, leasing ends up being discriminatory in practice, but on paper, Arabs have the same right and opportunity to lease land. The exception has been Jewish National Fund (JNF) land. This is the issue that has been raised in recent years by Arab citizens of Israel who have sued the state to allow Arabs to compete for lease tenders on JNF land. The claim is that since the ILA administers this land, it falls under the Basic Law of Israel which prohibits discrimination against any of its citizens. The Attorney General agreed and ruled that tenders for JNF land must be open to all. The High Court has not yet ruled, but it is widely expected that they will concur with the AG’s ruling. This is why the current bill, stipulating that JNF lands must be administered according to JNF guidelines (which stipulate that the land was bought for use by Jews) is being promoted in the Knesset. It is an attempt to circumvent the High Court and the Attorney General.
Anti-Arab hostility in Israel is not unexpected, not only because of history, but because this is typical of the treatment of minorities in multi-ethnic societies. In this regard, it is not different from racial or ethnic discrimination found in many countries, not least the USA. The accusation of many supporters of the Palestinians that Arabs can’t buy land is disingenuous and exaggerated. But by the same token, any claim that Arabs have equal access to land in Israel (even just renting an apartment is a very difficult proposition for Arabs) is completely divorced from reality.
The JNF, like the state itself, does not sell its land. The JNF’s own rules prohibit the sale of its land because JNF land is purchased as “national land of the Jewish people.” When the ILA took over administration of this land, the Knesset passed a law enshrining this rule. Indeed, the whole idea of state ownership of just about all of the land in Israel was inspired by the JNF.
The JNF handed over all administration of its lands to the ILA, with the exception of lands reserved for forestation (which are, by definition, irrelevant to this controversy as they will not be settled by anyone, Jewish or not). The JNF, of course, remains involved in the process of leasing the land, but it’s the ILA that actually carries it out. Indeed, it is only because the ILA administers the land that the bill has relevance at all. To explain…
If the JNF was a private landholder, it would be free to manage that land as it sees fit. The small amount of land in Israel that is privately held is not regulated. It is both freely available, under the law, to any buyer and is not monitored for discrimination in selling practices.
Because the ILA is a governmental agency, it falls under the restrictions of the Basic Law, which prohibits discrimination in land leasing. There is, therefore, an inherent contradiction between the rules under which the ILA operates and its agreement with the JNF to administer JNF lands according to JNF guidelines. It should be noted, I hasten to add, that despite the fact that the JNF is specifically set up to purchase land for the use of Jews, its land is sometimes leased short-term to Israeli Arabs. There are also times when JNF land is leased long-term to Arabs, with this land first being traded to the state in exchange for other state-owned land that then becomes JNF property and is used for Jewish development. This is a cumbersome process, so it is not often pursued, and neither of these exceptions are common practice. In open bidding for JNF land leases, only Jews are permitted to participate.
It is this contradiction between Israel’s anti-discrimination laws and JNF guidelines that has come before the High Court and prompted AG Mazuz’s ruling. The bill is designed to circumvent Mazuz’s ruling and the expected decision of the High Court that a government agency cannot discriminate in this fashion.
The JNF was established in 1901. It’s purpose was to gather charitable contributions from Jews all over the world to purchase land in Palestine from the Ottoman Empire. Over the years, the blue “pushkes” (coin collection boxes) the JNF circulated became symbols of support for Israel. Considerable charitable funds came to the JNF and they purchased as much land as they could in Palestine.
But the biggest land acquisitions were two purchases of around one million dunams each (a dunam is about 1/4 of an acre) in 1949 and 1950. this was land the new state had taken control of after the Palestinian owners fled. Since the disposition of the Palestinian refugees was still unclear at that time, Israel sold, at a steep discount, this land to the JNF in order to make it harder for Palestinians to reclaim it. In 1960, the JNF handed over administration of its lands to the ILA under the arrangement that has lasted until this day.
The JNF therefore argues that it collected money for its land purchases from Jews all over the world, and that money was donated with the understanding that it would be spent on developing Jewish communities in Israel. Hence it should be permitted, and even aided by Israel, in fulfilling this obligation. The case brought to the High Court and the attention of the Attorney General argues that the JNF cannot simultaneously make that argument as a private organization and also reap the benefits of getting sweetheart deals from the government and even have the government administer the land. The law backs this argument in the view of the AG and likely in the view of the High Court (based on an earlier ruling).
The new Knesset bill is necessary for those promoting exclusive Jewish access to JNF lands because the discriminatory practice is based on the ILA’s agreeing to abide by JNF guidelines, not on Israeli law. Hence, if the law and the agreement are in conflict, the law must obviously prevail. Therefore, the law specifically addresses JNF lands administered by the ILA, as the bill would provide an exception for JNF lands to Israel’s Basic Law against discrimination in land leasing. If this bill fails and the High Court rules that the ILA cannot discriminate, the JNF could work something out with the government to return administration of the land to the JNF. It obviously does not want to do so, because taking back the administration involves considerable cost as well as the potential for other problems.
As to which land is JNF land, the demarcation is quite clear. Specific plots of land were bought by the JNF prior to statehood. After statehood, the fledgling state sold the JNF a good deal of land held by absentee Palestinian owners at a steep discount in order to prevent the state from being forced to return that land to it Palestinian owners. Yaakov Shimshon Shapira, Israel’s first attorney general, questioned the legality of these sales, but the Absentee Property Law made it legal. So, there are clear titles that the JNF holds on lands it explicitly and specifically purchased before the days of the state and from the state in its earliest days, and they have only changed when the ILA wanted some JNF lands to lease to Arabs and traded other land for it, as I mentioned above.
As a postscript, I’ll just note that the JNF lands are some of the very best lands in Israel, described by historian Michael Oren as the “creme de la creme” when he was bemoaning how the JNF had the best land and left all the rocky and uncultivated land to the state. Also, it should be noted that the ILA and JNF were reported, in 2005, to have been working on a plan to give each other a “get” to avoid this whole controversy. How far those plans were developed, or have been revived today, I can’t say.
109 Responses to “The JNF Bill–A Backgrounder”
Leave a Reply
You must be logged in to post a comment.
August 6th, 2007 at 9:52 am
We cannot compare Israel to the United States. Israel is a Jewish state.
Israel was created as a refuge and a homeland for the Jewish people. Not just anyone can immigrate to Israel. We have the Law of Return which enables Diaspora Jews to return to their homeland.
JNF was established to purchase land specifically for the Jewish people. This is not about racism or bigotry. This is about Jewish land, purchased by and for the Jews.
I fear the Jimmy Carter’s, and other Jew-haters around the world who accuse Israel of being an Apartheid state, have the Anti-Defamation League and other left-leaning groups on the defensive; running for cover.
I am a proud Jew. I am not ashamed of our state or our heritage. Why should we let the Jew-haters dictate what we do with our land?
August 6th, 2007 at 9:47 pm
“Why should we let the Jew-haters dictate what we do with our land?”
What Jew-haters? Who is dictating to you? What in the hell are you talking about?
August 7th, 2007 at 5:24 am
“I fear the Jimmy Carter’s, and other Jew-haters around the world who accuse Israel of being an Apartheid state…”
On what page is it that Jimmy Carter speaks of apartheid within Israel itself, or accuses Israel of being an apartheid state?
August 7th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
the title of the book, john. carter himself said he named it that to be inflammatory and sell books.
August 7th, 2007 at 8:30 pm
No, that referred to apartheid outside of Israel, in the occupied territories. That’s where there are two sets of laws, one for the Arabs and one for the Jews. Carter went out of his way to make the point that he was NOT talking about anything resembling apartheid within Israel proper.
Why do you insist on misrepresenting him, Steve? If he is really so bad, why do you need to work at making him seem worse? Aren’t you bearing false witness?
August 7th, 2007 at 10:18 pm
seems more like there’s one set of laws. the jews live by the laws, like civilized people, and the palestinians fight amongst themselves.
using the word apartheid is a priori ridiculous. apartheid was a specific thing at a specific time, and it is dead. using it is as much an anachronism as calling bush a nazi, and as pointless.
August 7th, 2007 at 10:50 pm
Here is what happens when religion gets mixed up with the government in a democracy. As James Madison said, it’s not good for either of them.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/890519.html
August 8th, 2007 at 5:28 am
This is what happens when religion gets mixed up with the government? Madison said it’s not good for either? Is this why you support Pope Pius XII’s decision to respect the decision of the democratically elected government of Germany to exterminate her Jewish citizens? He didn’t want to interfere with a lawful government decision by mixing religion with the government. Thus German bishops by and large remained silent as Jews were persecuted and deported to the concentration camps. Better to not mix religion with the government.
August 8th, 2007 at 6:48 am
John: “Here is what happens when religion gets mixed up with the government in a democracy. As James Madison said, it’s not good for either of them.”
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/123310
What Constitutes an Illegal Order?
by Ezra HaLevi
(IsraelNN.com) Rabbi Elyakim Levanon, the head of the hesder yeshiva in Elon Moreh, called Tuesday for a public discussion of what constitutes an illegal, and therefore refusable, order.
“Everyone agrees that refusing orders is an awful thing,” he said, “and everyone agrees that there are certain orders that a soldier is required to refuse. The question is where to draw the line.”
The rabbi argues that the whole debate over whether or not to refuse orders is superfluous, as the classification of an immoral order is taught to every IDF soldier in basic training, as the IDF’s conscious effort to differentiate itself from the functionaries of the Nazi army who had said they were “just following orders……”
August 8th, 2007 at 7:29 am
” Is this why you support Pope Pius XII’s decision to respect the decision of the democratically elected government of Germany to exterminate her Jewish citizens? “
Steve, you really have a problem with lashon ha-ra>/b> it seems. You pull this same crap with me and Isidor, so I imagine you’ve had complaints from other people before. Its a very nasty habit you have of accusing those who disagree with you of holding outrageous positions by putting the accusations in the form of statements of fact, sometimes as in this case in the form of a confirming question. (Are you still beating your wife? Is this why you became a member of the SS in 1939?) Sometimes it is merely annoying, but when you accuse me of being pro-Nazi or supporting genocide this is unbelievably offensive. I am completely disgusted with this. Last I heard Isidor was, too. You should say what you think / believe and let the other person say what he thinks / believes rather than doing that for him. This is a matter of derech eretz, common decency. If you are not going to observe this courtesy, please explain why should anyone continue to talk to you.
August 8th, 2007 at 7:31 am
sorry, I’ll try again
Steve, you really have a problem with lashon ha-ra it seems. You pull this same crap with me and Isidor, so I imagine you’ve had complaints from other people before. Its a very nasty habit you have of accusing those who disagree with you of holding outrageous positions by putting the accusations in the form of statements of fact, sometimes as in this case in the form of a confirming question. (Are you still beating your wife? Is this why you became a member of the SS in 1939?) Sometimes it is merely annoying, but when you accuse me of being pro-Nazi or supporting genocide this is unbelievably offensive. I am completely disgusted with this. Last I heard Isidor was, too. You should say what you think / believe and let the other person say what he thinks / believes rather than doing that for him. This is a matter of derech eretz, common decency. If you are not going to observe this courtesy, please explain why should anyone continue to talk to you.
August 8th, 2007 at 10:11 am
So much for a discussion on Israeli land laws and regulations!
Come on guys. Get a grip. The issue before us is whether a democratic state can allow a private organization (JNF) or public agency (ILA) to discriminate in the leasing of lands.
Steve argues that this is permissible in a Jewish State. Thus we could extrapolate that any state defined by its ethno/religious majority can discriminate in order to benefit its majority. A Christian state can discriminate against non-christians etc. Or does only a Jewish state have this right?
Of course all this gets to the heart of the matter (as it always does). Can Israel be a Jewish state and fully democratic. No. And we either accept this or not, as an article of faith.
There are many countries that limit democracy in order to maintain a specific ideology.
Personally I do not favor this. All my co-citizens in Israel need to have equal and full access to all the state’s resources, including land. I have no problem with the state’s ownership of lawfully acquired land, provided access is equal for all citizens. I have no problem with any private organization owning land for a special purpose. However when an organization such as the Jewish National Fund owns such a huge chunk of our national real estate (about 15%), and is intricately linked with our government so as to become a de-facto government agency, then their lands should be nationalized. BTW, JNF officials hold Israeli diplomatic passports and have high protocol ranking. So much for their private status.
It may also be appropriate to strip the JNF of its tax exempt status in the US and elsewhere for the reasons mentioned above.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:16 pm
Fred, I agree, although I would have no problem with immigration restrictions to control the demographic mix. Israel can thus remain a Jewish state in that way. But once a person is admitted and becomes a citizen, whatever their ethnicity or religion, they should be equal before the law in every respect. Fair?
August 8th, 2007 at 1:17 pm
Fred wrote: “Steve argues that this is permissible in a Jewish State. Thus we could extrapolate that any state defined by its ethno/religious majority can discriminate in order to benefit its majority. A Christian state can discriminate against non-christians etc. Or does only a Jewish state have this right?”
Fred, the following is part of Chief Justice John Marshall’s rulling for the majority of our US Supreme Court, Cherokee Nation v. the State of Georgia, 1831. I beleive it remains the law of the land. I’d be interested in your take on this:
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/cherokee.htm
Cherokee Nation v. the State of Georgia, 1831
“The Indian territory is admitted to compose a part of the United States. In all our maps, geographical treaties, histories, and laws, it is so considered. In all our intercourse with foreign nations, in our commercial regulations, in any attempt at intercourse between Indians and foreign nations, they are considered as within the jurisdictional limits of the United States, subject to many of those restraints which are imposed upon our own citizens. ….”
“Though the Indians are acknowledged to have an unquestionable, and, heretofore, unquestioned right to the lands they occupy, until that right shall be extinguished by a voluntary cession to our government; yet it may well be doubted whether those tribes which reside within the acknowledged boundaries of the United States can, with strict accuracy, be denominated foreign nations.
They may, more correctly be denominated domestic dependent nations. They occupy a territory to which WE ASSERT (emphasis mine) a title independent of their will, which must take effect in point of possession when their right of possession ceases. Meanwhile, they are in a state of pupilage. Their relation to the United States resembles that of a ward to his guardian.
“They look to our government for protection; rely upon its kindness and its power; appeal to it for relief to their wants; and address the president as their great father. They and their country are considered by foreign nations, as well as by ourselves, as being so completely under the sovereignty and dominion of the United States, that any attempt to acquire their lands, or to form a political connexion with them, would be considered by all as an invasion of our territory, and an act of hostility.”
August 9th, 2007 at 8:26 am
This discussion is essentially the same ethical conundrum posed by the rights of the unborn, versus women’s rights (abortion).
Both parties have rights. The problem arises because those rights overlap one-another.
The Jews have a special position as an historically endangered population. This can neither be denied or disregarded.
The Arabs have basic human rights of their own.
These two sets of rights overlap.
Further complicating the situation is the poor treatment that minorities receive in the neighboring Arab countries. This too can not be denied or disregarded. Jordan, for example, denied citizenship to all Jews it acquired with its acquisition of land in the 20th century. Israel did not reciprocate in kind.
August 9th, 2007 at 8:31 am
“…it remains the law of the land.”
There was a subsequent decision which held that all Indian affairs are in federal rather than state jurisdiction. So, that aspect of it changed. (Is this why casinos are permitted on reservations contrary to state gambling laws?). The land is their own, but as U.S. protectorates; not as independent foreign nations.
Can you state exactly what is the moral / legal equivalency you are arguing here? (Please see posts #179, 180 on the previous thread). In other words, what exactly are you trying to prove?
August 9th, 2007 at 9:20 am
Can you state exactly what is the moral / legal equivalency you are arguing here? (Please see posts #179, 180 on the previous thread). In other words, what exactly are you trying to prove?>>>>
Nothing. Never mind.
August 9th, 2007 at 11:04 am
Steve, under Chief Justice John Marshall, the Court acknowledged that tribes possessed their land before European settlement, and so they hold an ownership interest in their lands superior to all governments except the United States. The Court’s 1831 decision, Cherokee Nation v. Georgia, explains that United States can obtain tribal title only by purchase or by military conquest. In addition, the tribes cannot sell property to any entity but the government of the United States. Indian nations are not foreign powers, but at the same time they do possess governmental power. The relationship, unlike that of any other two groups in existence, is defined as most like the trust relationship between a ward and a guardian.
The Supreme Court quickly followed up on its first decision with Worcester v. Georgia in 1832. This decision affirmed that any treaties made with the United States did not abolish tribal governments. Along with the states and the United States, Indian tribes have inherent sovereignty. The tribes are distinct political entities with territorial boundaries. Within those boundaries, tribal authority is exclusive, entitling the tribes to establish institutions of their own and to govern themselves by their own laws. Neither states nor the federal government may abolish these governments.
John, the tribes can operate casinos and other forms of gaming only if the state in which the tribe is situated also has or could have gaming.
August 9th, 2007 at 6:58 pm
Leah, thanks for your help!
August 10th, 2007 at 8:47 am
Leah, You wrote: “under Chief Justice John Marshall, the Court acknowledged that tribes possessed their land before European settlement, and so they hold an ownership interest in their lands superior to all governments except the United States. The Court’s 1831 decision, Cherokee Nation v. Georgia, explains that United States can obtain tribal title only by purchase or by military conquest. In addition, the tribes cannot sell property to any entity but the government of the United States. Indian nations are not foreign powers, but at the same time they do possess governmental power. The relationship, unlike that of any other two groups in existence, is defined as most like the trust relationship between a ward and a guardian.
The Supreme Court quickly followed up on its first decision with Worcester v. Georgia in 1832. This decision affirmed that any treaties made with the United States did not abolish tribal governments. Along with the states and the United States, Indian tribes have inherent sovereignty. The tribes are distinct political entities with territorial boundaries. Within those boundaries, tribal authority is exclusive, entitling the tribes to establish institutions of their own and to govern themselves by their own laws. Neither states nor the federal government may abolish these governments….>>>>
Thanks Leah. According to my sources, Georgia, with the tacit consent of President Andrew Jackson faced down the U.S. Supreme Court.
Squatters continued to invade and occupy the Cherokee lands that they wanted in Georgia. Jackson reputedly said “the decision of the supreme court has fell still born, and they find that it cannot coerce Georgia to yield to its mandate.
Nonetheless, Jackson quietly nudged Georgia into obeying the court order to free two missionaries who helped the Cherokees, Dr. Elizur Butler and Samuel A. Worcester.
“With the annoying problem of the two missionaries out of the way, both Georgia and Jackson continued to lean on the Cherokees to get them to remove. Some of the most vicious and base characters that the adjoining states can produce squatted on their land and stole horses and other property. Missionaries decried what was happening to the Cherokees. If only ‘whites would not molest them’, wrote Dr. Eluzur Butler in the Missionary Herald.”
Jackson and the state of Georgia ultimately prevailed over the Georgia Cherokees, the U.S. Supreme Court notwithstanding, did they not? The Cherokees were removed.
Jackson’s successor, Martin Van Buren, ordered the removal to begin, May 23, 1938. Militiamen charged into the Cherokee country and drove the Cherokees from their cabins and houses. With rifles and bayonets they rounded up the Indians and placed them in prison stockades that had been erected “for gathering in and holding the Indians preparatory to removal.”
These poor frightened, and benighted innocents, while having supper in their homes, were startled by the sudden gleam of bayonets in the doorway and rose up to be driven with blows and oaths along the weary miles of trail which led to the stockade. Men were seized in the fields, women were taken from the wheels and children from their play. As they turned for one last glimpse of their homes the frequently saw them in flames, set ablaze by the lawless rabble who followed the soldiers, scavenging what they could. These out laws stole the cattle and other livestock and even desecrated graves in their search for silver pendants and other valuables. They looted and burned. Said one Georgia volunteer who later served in the Confederate Army: “I fought through the Civil War and have seen men shot to pieces and slaughtered by thousands, but the Cherokee removal was the cruelest I ever saw.”
In a single week some seventeen thousand Cherokees were rounded up and herded into what was surely a concentration camp. Many sickened and died while they awaited transport to the west. In June the first contingent of about a thousand Indians boarded a steamboat and sailed down the Tennessee River on the first lap of their westward journey. Then they were boxed like animals into railroad cars drawn by locomotives.; many deaths on account of the oppressive heat and cramped conditions in the =cars. For the last leg of the journey the Cherokees walkded. They came to call this eight-hundred mile nightmare the Grail of Tears.
Of the approximately eighteen thousand Cherokees who were removed, at least four thousand died in the stockades or along the way, and some say the figure actually reached eight thousand. By the middle of June 1938, the general in charge of the Georgia militia proudly reported that not a single Cherokee remained in the state except as prisoners in the stockade.
August 10th, 2007 at 8:53 am
Sorry, I meant to write, the Trail of Tears.
August 10th, 2007 at 9:12 am
“These poor frightened, and benighted innocents, while having supper in their homes, were startled by the sudden gleam of bayonets in the doorway and rose up to be driven with blows and oaths along the weary miles of trail which led to the stockade.”
Steve, I realize this is a quote; not your words, but what I don’t understand is your deep sympathy for the Indians (rather than the settlers) in the one case and the Israeli settlers (rather than the Palestinians) in the other.
I empathize with anyone losing their homes, but I have a hard time sympathizing with the Israeli settlers:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/891889.html
August 10th, 2007 at 10:12 am
Yes, it is a quote from Robert V. Remini.
In one respect I do have sympathy for the Indians because, unlike the Arabs, many simply wished to live in peace beside their White neighbors. Yet, like the Arabs, many were uncivilized and behaved in a savage manner. Thus the title “savages.”
I do however see Native Americans having infinitely more virtue than Israel’s Arab enemies.
Andrew Jackson was a racist as were most Americans in his day, especially those living in the western frontier. Jackson and his neighbors viewed African Americans and Indians as quite inferior to whites, almost sub-human, therefore he ruthlessly exploited them and despoiled them of their land through open warfare and then later by Treaties, by means of threats of extermination and through bribing their chiefs.
In this, Jackson was able to despoil the Creek nation and the Choctaw nation and persuade them to remove across the Mississippi river to the Arkansas and Oklahoma territories — where Jackson promised they would be unmolested. Only there they were despoiled by white settlers in those territories. In other words Jackson lied to them. He tricked them.
Because I view everything as providential, I believe in part, God allowed Jackson and Americans to do this to these wretched people in order to set a standard for the future. Still, I believe God has blessed America.
Like historian Paul Johnson, who wrote that Deir Yassin should be examined from the standpoint of Israel’s moral credentials, I believe America’s treatment of the Indians should as well for one important reason.
I would not be visiting this subject, or it is unlikely that I would, were it not that the United States of America is in the forefront in an effort of this effort to steal land that God gave to the Jews from the Jews.
Were it not for all the innocent Indian blood on American hands what the US is doing to Israel would not be so very egregious to me. But it is egregious and blatant hypocrisy, again to me. Maybe not to you but to me.
America cannot erase the guilt of her past and to me and I believe to the Almighty, Yet, America is compounding her guilt as she seeks to destroy God’s people in the Holy Land and rob us of our land.
I pray for God’s ultimate vengeance on this once great nation for this evil. This is my prayer as America continues in this evil path.
For this evil I would like nothing more than to see America utterly destroyed one day in the future. And if you ask what I am going to do? I will plainly tell you. I will one day immigrate to Israel. I do not wish to be here if and when the judgment comes.
August 10th, 2007 at 10:45 am
John, this writer, Daniel Ben Simon is a radical leftist as is Ha’aretz in general. He is however right about the following. Since Gush Katif expulsion, I believe there is a determination to not leave peacefully, without any resistance. Rabbis now counsel soldiers that it is wrong to obey immoral orders such as expelling Jews from their homes. Before the Gaza expulsion, rabbis did not do this by and large. No one expected the government to do this to its own people; especially not Sharon but Sharon sold out to the Bush White House. No telling what kind of threats Bush and his surrogates delivered to Sharon in private. Sharon alluded to the fact he was under tremendous pressure but this in no way absolves him for what he did to these wonderful people in Gush Katif.
Crisis of faith
The disengagement from Gush Katif gave rise to a crisis of faith of a kind that the settlers have not experienced since the 1967 Six-Day War. Even in their worst nightmares they didn’t imagine that the government would go all the way and uproot Jews from the holy ground of Gaza…..
Suddenly former prime minister Ariel Sharon came onto the scene and changed the modus operandi. Even at the height of the crisis they followed the words of the rabbis, who declared “It will never happen,” believing that in the last moment a miracle would occur and prevent the decree. Since the disengagement many settlers have severed themselves from the outside world. The shock of the uprooting is a still-oozing scar.
Already during the first attempt to go up to the evacuated West Bank settlement of Homesh, about half a year ago, the weakness of the government vis-a-vis the rabbis’ determination became evident. One thread, as strong as steel, links the evacuation of Amona to the ascent to Homesh, to the attempt to return to the destroyed Gush Katif settlements and to the events of Hebron: a determination to erase the disgrace of the disengagement from the settlers’ consciousness. They will never again evacuate willingly, they will never again go like sheep to the slaughter. In light of this, the hatred for the state and its institutions has increased, and the status of the fundamentalist rabbis, many of them members of the rabbinical council of Yesha (Judea and Samaria), has been strengthened even further.
Two years after the evacuation from Gush Katif the government is facing an internal threat with strategic implications for its future image. This is a fateful moment in the tense coexistence between those who favor secular values and those who cherish halakha. It is not clear whether hundreds of thousands of skullcap-wearers will continue to see themselves as part of the state if a peace accord is reached that will require a major evacuation of West Bank land.
In such a case the army, which is a reflection of the society in which it lives, will posit an existential dilemma between those who favor the sovereignty of the state and those who favor the sovereignty of the halakha. For the first time since the territories were annexed to the State of Israel in the Six-Day War, it seems that Israel will not be able to avoid this expected confrontation. The first signs were seen this week during the evacuation of Hebron, when dozens of soldiers preferred the halakhic decision of rabbis to orders from their commanders
August 10th, 2007 at 11:38 am
“I pray for God’s ultimate vengeance on this once great nation for this evil. This is my prayer as America continues in this evil path.
For this evil I would like nothing more than to see America utterly destroyed one day in the future.”
Steve, these words are pretty extreme. They are disturbing on several levels. Do you realize how hateful they sound? They could easily have come from Osama bin Laden’s latest tape. You appear to be someone who has completely lost his moral bearings. I hope that you will find someone whose advice you respect and work through all this with them, because you are not doing as well as you think you are on your own.
August 10th, 2007 at 11:52 am
No. The difference is, I pray for divine judgment and only if America persists in her obsession to divide the Holy Land and establish a Palestinian terror state. If America desists, I have no grievance with the US, except for the Gaza expulsion which I believe President Bush pushed Sharon hard to consummate.
For me, the following should be a warning to any believer in America:
Isa 59:17 He put on righteousness like a breastplate, And a helmet of salvation on His head; And He put on garments of vengeance for clothing And wrapped Himself with zeal as a mantle.
According to their deeds, so He will repay, Wrath to His adversaries, recompense to His enemies; To the coastlands He will make recompense.
So they will fear the name of the LORD from the west And His glory from the rising of the sun, For He will come like a rushing stream Which the wind of the LORD drives.
“A Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,” declares the LORD.
“As for Me, this is My covenant with them,” says the LORD: “My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring’s offspring,” says the LORD, “from now and forever.”
August 10th, 2007 at 11:57 am
John,
Here in the West, Americans do not fear the God of Israel. One day I believe they will fear Him.
Steve
August 10th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
Like I said…
August 10th, 2007 at 1:16 pm
If I am not mistaken, the Bible tells of only two nations upon which the judgement of Hashem came down destroying them utterly. They were not foreign, enemy nations but Israel and Judah. The word “judgement” meaning that the capitol cities were sacked and pillaged by foreign invaders and the inhabitants killed or taken captive. The Lord warned Israel and Judah of this in advance through the prophets of the direction things were going. The prophets put themselves on the line speaking truth to power. In no case however, did the prophets pray for Israel or Judah to be destroyed, for the Lord’s wrath to come down upon them in vengeance. This is the point you should discuss with a rabbi or someone else whose advice you trust.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:52 pm
Like I said… >>>
John,
I’m not saying your opinion of me without any importance all together but I am sure you will understand this. For me, the bottom line is, between now and the day of judgment, I basically have to answer to my Creator. I have an obligation to be a loyal citizen and I am a loyal citizen.
Have I gotten it wrong in the past? Yes but on Israel I believe I am on solid ground, rooted in the word of God.
I’m sure this will come as no surprise to you. To me your thoughts on the Holy Land and the nation (the people) of Israel and God’s thoughts as I understand them, are worlds apart.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
In the last days, the great world empire, the great commercial nation of Babylon will be judged. Modern day Iraq is not Babylon despite what TV preachers say.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
In no case however, did the prophets pray for Israel or Judah to be destroyed, for the Lord’s wrath to come down upon them in vengeance. >>>>
No and if they had they would not have been true prophets. I know David prayed that God would visit his vengeance upon Israel’s enemies. Didn’t some of the prophets also pray this? I will look it up when I return from my deliveries.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
“I believe I am on solid ground, rooted in the word of God.”
Yes, but Steve Klein is not the sole possessor of the word. It belongs to a whole family, so to speak. For example, on September 11, 2001 did you think your prayers were being answered? Check with others in the family to see if they felt the same way.
August 10th, 2007 at 7:33 pm
For example, on September 11, 2001 did you think your prayers were being answered?>>>>
This is an interesting question. You are not going to appreciate my answer. The simple answer is no, I was not praying for God to do anything at the time and I was taken completely by surprise and abhorred by the cold-hearted and calculated atrocities committed by these devout Muslims.
Do you remember, Muslims broke out in jubilation all over the Muslim Arab world. Especially in the Palestinian Muslim territories of Israel and Lebanon and in Egypt.
But this is Islam and these “kids” as Mr. Bush referred to them the other day, are good, faithful Muslims. This is the sort of thing Israel has experienced for years; these suicide bombings.
I can admit to this however. I was furious at Bush because in the months previous to 9/11, Israel had experienced some of the worst and bloodiest suicide bombings we’ve seen in years. The carnage was terrible and yet all we heard from Bush were scoldings and condemnations that Israel’s response was excessive and disproportionate and demands for “restraint.”
As it turned out, come to find out in the days preceding September 11, 2001, in late August Bush pledged to then Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz, in a two page letter that he would seek to establish a Palestinian terror state in the Holy Land. Now we know because he announced his “vision” for Israel’s annihilation only days after the 9/11 atrocities.
As we know, Al Qaeda is a Saudi proxy. Fifteen of the nineteen September hijackers were Saudi nationals. The bin Laden family are Saudis.
I do believe God withdrew His protection from America on September 11, 2001. No question about it.
“Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.” (Psalm 127:1)
Is this a sign of things to come? I don’t know yet. It is too early to tell. But if America continues on this path to destroy Israel, I would, were I a Bible-believing Christian, fear for America’s future safety and security.
August 10th, 2007 at 7:56 pm
John,
This has got to shock even your sensitivities. “Nineteen kids lured unto planes?”
http://www.mercurynews.com/politics/ci_6583527
Text of Bush’s pre-vacation conference
UNDATED: that itself.
Article Launched: 08/09/2007 11:18:54 AM PDT
Bush: ….I recognize there’s a debate here in America as to whether or not failure in Iraq would cause there to be more danger here in America. I strongly believe that’s the case.
It matters if the United States does not believe in the universality of freedom. It matters to the security of people here at home if we don’t work to change the conditions that caused 19 kids to be lured onto airplanes to come and murder our citizens
August 10th, 2007 at 8:02 pm
“Do you remember, Muslims broke out in jubilation all over the Muslim Arab world.”
No, as I recall there were in fact candlelight vigils even in Tehran.
http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm
August 10th, 2007 at 8:04 pm
“Bush pledged to then Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz, in a two page letter that he would seek to establish a Palestinian terror state in the Holy Land.”
He did no such thing. You seem to have a rather casual relationship to the truth.
August 10th, 2007 at 8:05 pm
“As we know, Al Qaeda is a Saudi proxy. Fifteen of the nineteen September hijackers were Saudi nationals.”
As we know, Al Qaeda’s principal target is the Saudi royal family, the current Saudi regime. Good grief.
August 10th, 2007 at 8:28 pm
“But if America continues on this path to destroy Israel…”
Your perception of America as the avowed destroyer of Israel is so far askew from reality it truly boggles the mind. How anyone could ever arrive at such a conclusion? The U.S. is without doubt the best friend Israel has in the world. Billions in aid go to Israel every year, half of it secret. Money and weapons. Anything Israel wants.
And then to pray that Divine judgement be brought down in vengeance upon America on the basis of this imaginary anti-Israeli agenda? It’s ridiculous.
You think you’re thinking, but you’re not, Steve. And if you are praying for G-d to utterly destroy America, you may think you are praying but you are not, because it’s not Hashem you are talking to. I guarantee you that.
August 10th, 2007 at 8:41 pm
“I do believe God withdrew His protection from America on September 11, 2001. No question about it.”
Yeah, you and the late Ayatollah Falwell. He said exactly the same thing as you. Except he made the pronouncement that September 11 was God’s punishment on feminists, liberals, homosexuals, and abortion clinics, and public schools without prayer. If so, His aim was off. I don’t know about feminists and homosexuals and abortionists, but I don’t think there were any school children or teachers in the WTC. Don’t blame September 11 on G-d, Steve. His was the first heart to be broken. He is on the side of the innocent. He doesn’t put narrow political agendas above human beings and human life, like you and Falwell.
August 10th, 2007 at 9:01 pm
“I do believe God withdrew His protection from America on September 11, 2001. No question about it.”
If he did, he is one sick bastard. No, that’s not my God, and not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
August 10th, 2007 at 9:03 pm
“Bush pledged to then Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz, in a two page letter that he would seek to establish a Palestinian terror state in the Holy Land.”
He did no such thing. You seem to have a rather casual relationship to the truth.>>>>>
http://www.saudi-american-forum.org/Newsletters/SAF_Item_Of_Interest_2003_04_30.htm
In August (2001), the Crown Prince saw on television an Israeli soldier pushing an elderly Palestinian woman. When she fell, she grabbed the soldier’s leg and he stepped on her. The Crown Prince, in a rage, called Bandar. “This is it. Those bastards!” he yelled, according to an account that (Saudi Ambassador Prince) Bandar has given associates. “Even women-they’re stepping all over them.” He ordered Bandar, who was in Aspen, to return to Washington and to deliver a message: Starting today, you go your way and we will go our way. From then on, the Saudis would look out for their own national interests. The high-ranking Saudi military delegation that had just arrived in Washington for meetings at the Pentagon was ordered to return home immediately.
The message represented a fundamental shift in Saudi policy, and Bandar left for Washington deeply worried. On August 27th, he met with Rice at her White House office. “This is the hardest message I’ve had to deliver between our two countries since I started working in this country, in 1983,” Bandar began, according to official Saudi notes that were later confirmed by an Administration source. For the next several minutes, Bandar summarized relations between the United States and Saudi Arabia. “We were your friend when it was not fashionable to be your friend. We stood in the fifties and sixties with you in the region when nobody was.” He continued, “The biggest challenge, of course, to the two of us was Saddam Hussein’s invasion of Kuwait.” The Crown Prince, he said, was deeply disturbed by the “continued Israeli actions, horrible actions, as if Jewish blood is not equal to Palestinian”-in particular, the practice of punishing the families of people suspected of committing terrorist acts. “We wonder how the American people would have accepted the President of the United States ordering all the McVeigh family houses to be destroyed or burning their farms,” he said, referring to the Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh. It seemed as if the United States had made a strategic decision to adopt Sharon’s policy as American policy. “In light of all that, the Crown Prince feels that he cannot continue dealing with the United States,” Bandar told Rice. “We feel that since you have taken such a decision, then we also are obliged to take our own decision.”
Rice told Bandar that she was shocked by the message and would take it immediately to the President. But she wanted Bandar to understand that the United States had not adopted a new strategic policy for the region.
Within thirty-six hours, Bandar was on his way to Riyadh with a conciliatory response from Bush. Nothing should ever break the relations between their two countries, Bush wrote to the Crown Prince in a two-page letter dated August 29th. “I am troubled and feel deeply the suffering of ordinary Palestinians in their day to day life and I want such tragedies and sufferings to end,” Bush wrote. “I firmly believe that the Palestinian people have a right to self-determination and to live peacefully and securely in their own state in their own homeland.” Not even Clinton had publicly supported a Palestinian state….
Bush agreed that he should make public his support for a Palestinian state, and the remainder of the meeting focussed on how to announce it. Powell was scheduled to leave Monday for a meeting in Peru, and they made plans to regroup on Thursday, after he returned. Bandar continued to work on the proposals, and on Monday night, September 10th, he floated in the indoor pool at his house in McLean, contentedly smoking a cigar.
Bandar slept late on the morning of September 11th. He was walking across his bedroom when he glanced at one of the ten television screens he kept on and saw fire coming out of one of the World Trade Center towers. “The first thing that came to my mind was that I’m going next week to the U.N. I am going to change my hotel and I am going to go to one of those hotels where you can live on the third or second floor,” he recalled. “King Hussein of Jordan, bless his soul, used to tell me, ‘Bandar, take my advice. Always stay on the first floor.’ I said, ‘Why, Majesty?’ and he said, ‘This fire. Or somebody starts shooting you. You jump out the window you break a leg, but if you are forty feet . . .’ ” Then he saw the second plane coming. “I had the same feeling I had when Rabin was assassinated,” he said. “I almost had a heart attack. And the first thing that came to my mind was ‘I hope it’s not an Arab, because it would be war.’ And I had the same feeling here. ‘I hope they are not Arabs.’ ” When Tenet called the next night to tell him that fifteen of the nineteen hijackers appeared to have been Saudi nationals, Bandar recalled, “I felt the whole world collapse over my shoulders.”
As the day wore on, Bandar watched the coverage. At one point, he saw Palestinian youths celebrating in the street. “I thought, My God, the whole impression this nation is going to have of us, the whole world, will be formed in the next two or three days.'’ He saw a congressman warning, “We will remember those people.”
Two days after the attacks, the President asked Bandar to come to the White House. Bush embraced him and escorted him to the Truman balcony. Bandar had a drink and the two men smoked cigars. Bandar was in a daze, still hoping that the news of Saudi participation would turn out to be a mistake. Al Qaeda operatives, after all, had travelled on false passports in the past, and so far the only identity that appeared certain was that of Mohammed Atta, the ringleader, who was an Egyptian. Until then, Bush had seemed to Bandar to be in his father’s shadow; he took more of his personality from his mother-he shot from the hip. But this day there was no bluster. At one point, Bush told Bandar that if any Al Qaeda operatives were captured, “if we can’t get them to cooperate, we’ll hand them over to you.” The clear implication was that the Saudis could do whatever they wanted to elicit information from suspects. A few days later, Bandar helped arrange to get bin Laden family members out of the United States, a move that was made under the supervision of the F.B.I. but caused public consternation.
August 10th, 2007 at 9:16 pm
“Bush agreed that he should make public his support for a Palestinian state, and the remainder of the meeting focussed on how to announce it.”
Where did Bush say he would establish a terror state?
August 10th, 2007 at 9:20 pm
Yeah, you and the late Ayatollah Falwell. He said exactly the same thing as you. Except he made the pronouncement that September 11 was God’s punishment on feminists, liberals, homosexuals, and abortion clinics, and public schools without prayer. If so, His aim was off. I don’t know about feminists and homosexuals and abortionists, but I don’t think there were any school children or teachers in the WTC. Don’t blame September 11 on G-d, Steve. His was the first heart to be broken. He is on the side of the innocent.>>>>>
You are mischaracterizing what I wrote. I did not write that it was “God’s punishment” or that God Himself did this and I agree God is on the side of the innocent and His heart was broken. I firmly believe this.
I wrote that I believe God withdrew His protection that day. God did not murder some 3,000 innocents on September 11, 2001. Muslim jihadists murdered these innocents. If Falwell said that God murdered them, Falwell I believe was wrong.
August 10th, 2007 at 9:22 pm
Where did Bush say he would establish a terror state? >>>>
Come on! Who is fooling whom? What do you and Bush think it’s going to be? A Muslim state dedicated to sewing and knitting?
August 10th, 2007 at 9:29 pm
“You are mischaracterizing what I wrote…I wrote that I believe God withdrew His protection that day. God did not murder some 3,000 innocents on September 11, 2001.”
No, I’m not. And it was exactly the same thing Falwell and Robertson said. What you and they are saying is that for whatever reasons God stood by and knowingly let it happen, did nothing to stop it. On the human level, when someone does that we indict them as accomplices or co-conspirators. You are attributing appalling immorality to God, making him an accomplice to Al Qaeda, a co-conspirator to the horrific murder of some 3,000 innocent people. If you or Robertson or the late Falwell had any moral sense you would understand what blasphemy you have spoken.
August 10th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
“Come on! Who is fooling whom?”
That does not entitle you to fabricate words and put them in his mouth and claim that that’s what he said. He didn’t promise to establish a terror state, which is what you said. It’s ridiculous. Have you no scruples?
August 10th, 2007 at 9:39 pm
Yes, Falwell at least apologized for his statement. Robertson distanced himself from Falwell’s remarks.
Here’s the transcript.
Then Falwell said, “What we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact, God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.”
Robertson replied, “Well, Jerry, that’s my feeling. I think we’ve just seen the antechamber to terror, we haven’t begun to see what they can do to the major population.”
Falwell said, “The ACLU has got to take a lot of blame for this. And I know I’ll hear from them for this, but throwing God…successfully with the help of the federal court system…throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools, the abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked and when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad…I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who try to secularize America…I point the thing in their face and say you helped this happen.”
Robertson said, “I totally concur, and the problem is we’ve adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government, and so we’re responsible as a free society for what the top people do, and the top people, of course, is the court system.”
Falwell added, “Pat, did you notice yesterday that the ACLU and all the Christ-haters, the People for the American Way, NOW, etc., were totally disregarded by the Democrats and the Republicans in both houses of Congress, as they went out on the steps and and called out to God in prayer and sang ‘God bless America’ and said, let the ACLU be hanged. In other words, when the nation is on its knees, the only normal and natural and spiritual thing to do is what we ought to be doing all the time, calling on God.”
The statements of Muslim scholars around the world on the occasion of the WTC attacks put both of those fakes to shame:
http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm
August 11th, 2007 at 7:07 am
John, your Muslim scholars sound like a bunch of whining members of the Council on American Islamic relations-jihadist / terrorist sympathizers. You can always know your neighborly Islamic jihadist-sympathizer by the degree they whine about all the injustice done to American Muslims:
Scholars of Islam speak out against terrorism; clarify position of Islam
Monday, September 17, 2001
Dozens of scholars of Islam issued a statement today, condemning the violent attacks of September 11th.
“We are grief-stricken at these horrifying events,” they wrote; “the murder of innocents can never be justified and must not be tolerated.”
In a lengthy statement, professors from major colleges and universities throughout the country expressed their compassion for grieving family members while also decrying the increase in violence against American Muslims this past week. “Anger and frustration are completely understandable and shared by us all,” they wrote “yet (YET!) that anger must not be directed at individuals utterly innocent of these terrible crimes.”
(WHINE) In recent days, verbal and physical attacks against Muslims (and people who were thought to be Muslims) have been reported from California to Vermont. Muslims have been warned to stay home or to avoid wearing traditional dress.
(WHINE) “Particularly distressing is the fact that many American Muslims have fled to the United States, seeking a haven from intolerant regimes in Kosovo, Afghanistan or Iraq. For them now to face intolerance and violence here is an abuse of our Nation’s most deeply cherished beliefs” they said.
WHINE, WHINE, WHINE;
“OH HOW WE ARE PERSECUTED! OH THE INJUSTICE! BRING OUT THE BIG GUNS! BRING OUT OUR HANDSOMELY PAID LAWYERS, PAID WITH SAUDI OIL MONEY! WE’LL TEACH THESE INFIDELS NOT TO INSULT ISLAM AND THE PROPHET!”
August 11th, 2007 at 9:31 am
I’ll take their statement of compassion and sincere grief, and even their all-too-justified fears of persecution, any day of the week over the God-as-accessory-before-the-fact 9/11 gotcha theology of Falwell, Robertson, and Klein.
The Muslim scholars demonstrate in their statement the empathy that is basic to simple human decency, derekh eretz.
You and those despicable televangelists do not demonstrate empathy, claiming instead that G-d knowingly looked the other way to allow Al Qaeda to slaughter 3,000 innocents in order to punish America for its purported Christ-haters / Jew-haters.
August 11th, 2007 at 9:46 am
I’ll take their statement of compassion and sincere grief, and even their all-too-justified fears of persecution, any day of the week over the God-as-accessory-before-the-fact 9/11 gotcha theology of Falwell, Robertson, and Klein. >>>>
I believe in collective guilt. These Muslim scholars who I believe collectively bear some responsibility for the 9/11 atrocities by virtue of their self-indicting words, remind me of the Menendez brother, who after murdering their parents, threw themselves at the mercy of the court because they were orphans. And they received the courts mercy.
I believe America is modern-day Babylon. Keep pushing this administration and future administrations to “engage” in the Middle East “peace” process John. You will bring about your own and America’s judgment.
Jer 50:22 “The noise of battle is in the land, And great destruction.
“How the hammer of the whole earth Has been cut off and broken! How Babylon has become An object of horror among the nations!
“I set a snare for you and you were also caught, O Babylon, While you yourself were not aware; You have been found and also seized Because you have “engaged” in conflict with the LORD.”
The LORD has opened His armory And has brought forth the weapons of His indignation, For it is a work of the Lord GOD of hosts In the land of the Chaldeans.
Come to her from the farthest border; Open up her barns, Pile her up like heaps And utterly destroy her, Let nothing be left to her.
Put all her young bulls to the sword; Let them go down to the slaughter! Woe be upon them, for their day has come, The time of their punishment.
There is a sound of fugitives and refugees from the land of Babylon, To declare in Zion the vengeance of the LORD our God, Vengeance for His temple.
August 11th, 2007 at 9:50 am
Isn’t the United states “the hammer of the whole earth?” Pounding tiny nation like Israel into submission?
August 11th, 2007 at 10:09 am
“I believe in collective guilt.”
I believe that’s an excellent excuse for bigotry.
In Judaism, on the other hand, the principle evolved that “the sins of the father” were not visited on the sons, but that each person is responsible for his own acts; not those of his father or brother. As for the “collective guilt” of a community, Hashem said he would not destroy Sodom for the sake of even ten righteous men. There is no community in which everyone is evil. Our job, as Abraham’s, is to pray that the city be spared; not destroyed. If you pray for G-d to kill people; you are not praying, it is not G-d you are talking to. (Speak with a rabbi about this and maybe he can help you figure out who it is you are praying to instead of Hashem.)
August 11th, 2007 at 10:23 am
In Judaism, on the other hand, the principle evolved that “the sins of the father” were not visited on the sons, but that each person is responsible for his own acts; not those of his father or brother. As for the “collective guilt” of a community, Hashem said he would not destroy Sodom for the sake of even ten righteous men.>>>>
Yes, but the truly righteous condemn evil and immoral acts, such as expelling Jews from their homes. If a so-called righteous man remains silent in the face of evil then he is complicit in the evil. Lincoln said, “To sin by silence when they know they should protest, makes cowards of men.”
In the face of enormities and evil, the silent man is a conniver. Pope Pius XII was complicit in the evil of Hitler’s genocide because he was silent. He did not explicitly condemn the mass-genocide or Hitler by name or Nazism or the Holocaust. He was the “silent pope.” He was Hitler’s pope. Same hold true with these Muslim scholars. I don’t see the condemnation. CAIR will not condemn Hamas or Hezbollah by name. If a Muslim spokesman on the one hand abhors violence and terror and on the other hand condemns Americans for persecuting jihadist-sympathizers, he is not innocent.
August 11th, 2007 at 11:22 am
“In the face of enormities and evil, the silent man is a conniver.”
This is what Falwell, Robinson, and Klein make of G-d, when they / you say He lifted his curtain of protection around America on September, 11th.
You are entitled to your opinions, but if you are praying that America be utterly destroyed, as you said, that is of course asking Hashem to kill people, a LOT of people, and that you should not do. Because in that case you make G-d not only a silent conniver, but an active assassin working together with jihadist terrorists.
I can’t really believe that this is something you would ascribe to G-d, Steve, regardless the depth of your emotions on these issues. I refuse to believe that about you. But I don’t think you have thought through this carefully enough.
August 11th, 2007 at 11:42 am
He lifted his curtain of protection around America on September, 11th.>>>>
Let us be clear about something because I’ve done a little reading on this subject. Bush administration officials — especially National Security Advisor, Condoleezza Rice — were repeatedly warned by outgoing Clinton administration officials of the looming Al Qaeda threat to America. Bush and his aids chose to ignore the dire warnings. They had other more pressing matters to contend with than national security and a bunch of Al Qaeda terrorists.
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2004/03/19/578/49731
Richard Clarke, Clinton’s counterterrorism coordinator, whose book, Against All Enemies : Inside the White House’s War on Terror–What Really Happened, is being released Monday, says:
…the warning about the Qaeda threat could not have been made more bluntly to the incoming Bush officials in intelligence briefings that he led. At the time of the briefings, there was extensive evidence tying Al Qaeda to the bombing in Yemen two months earlier of an American warship, the Cole, in which 17 sailors were killed. “It was very explicit,” Mr. Clarke said of the warning given to the Bush administration officials. “Rice was briefed, and Hadley was briefed, and Zelikow sat in.”
The White House does not dispute that it received the information. The dispute is over what was done with the information. The Clinton aides say the Bush administration sat on it and that terrorism was a low priority until Sept. 11. Bush says he made terrorism a top priority and followed through on Clinton’s policies.
August 11th, 2007 at 11:46 am
I can’t really believe that this is something you would ascribe to G-d>>>>
I hold Bush, in large measure, accountable for the 9/11 atrocities. Not G-d. Chances are, I will hold future administrations and American leaders responsible for any atrocities visited on U.S. soil.
August 11th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
This is what Falwell, Robinson, and Klein make of G-d>>>>
One more thing John. I would greatly appreciate it if you did not compare me to Bush apologists, boot-lickers and toadies like the late Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. These two are men that Lincon’s proverb about sinning by silence in the face of evil applies.
August 11th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
I’m sure you would not like to be compared to them. But your statement was the same as theirs. My advice would be that you distance yourself from what they said.
Yes, hold them responsible. And be on the alert for wickedness. The question is what should you do when you find it. Rather than praying for G-d to kill the unrighteous, the way of the tzaddik is to pray that G-d will open their eyes and turn their hearts toward Him, and then to make every effort to convince them to repent of their wickedness. It is not your job to hold them accountable, but G-d’s. (”Vengeance is mine,” says YHWH.)
August 11th, 2007 at 1:25 pm
“It is not your job to hold them accountable, but G-d’s. (”Vengeance is mine,” says YHWH.)”
corr: It is not your job to dispense vengeance, but G-d’s.
August 11th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
When I was a precinct committeeman in our local Republican Executive Committee, I submitted a resolution to be sent to our US Congressman (one Congresswoman) all Republicans and they ignored it. I think the think passed nearly unanimously; one member objected to the mention of God and divine judgment. I’m sure you would have joined him. The following was our resolution:
We resolve that:
Israel is a unique nation, accordingly, the United States should consider it
differently than any other nation. This is true from a Biblical perspective and
also from a humanitarian perspective, because Israel represents the only sure
refuge for the Jewish people. The importance of this fact was proven during the Holocaust.
Israel is the natural ally of the United States in the “War on Terrorism.” Many
of the terrorist attacks are directed either against Israel or the United
States.
Any policy set forth by the United States demanding that Israel compromise with
radical Muslim terrorists while the United States actively engages in military
confrontation with radical Muslim terrorists is immoral and should be changed.
The actions of Israel’s Muslim-Arab inhabitants declare that any Palestinian
state would become a terrorist state sharing exactly those goals of radical
Muslim terrorists.
The United States should abandon its efforts to divide the land of Israel to
avert severe Godly judgment.
We, therefore request that you encourage the Administration to alter its policy
relative to Israel: that the right of Israelis to live and build communities
anywhere in the land of Israel be recognized; and that the Arab-world goal of
eliminating the Jewish state be made public and repudiated.
As citizens of this republic we submit these resolutions to you as our elected
governmental representatives. We respectfully request that you work to
implement these resolutions.
I wrote a letter to president Bush in 2001 urging him to alter his suicidal path. I have Christian neighbors that tell me they are praying for Mr. Bush. I am not praying for Bush and I feel no obligation to pray for President Bush. He’s already crossed all my red lines. It’s too late for Bush. There comes a point in time when a man has crossed all reasonable bounds.
August 11th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
“It is not your job to hold them accountable, but G-d’s. (”Vengeance is mine,” says YHWH.)”
Didn’t Moses send the armies of Israel out to make war on the Midianites? Didn’t he tell them to “take the Lord’s vengeance on the Midianites?” So vengeance belongs to YHWH and He sends the armies of Israel to take vengeance on His enemies. What do you think of that idea? When I call for vengeance, I am speaking of YHWH’s vengeance.
I disagree with Falwell and Robertson for claiming 9/11 was because of homosexuality and other sins and vices, though I am pro-traditional family. It is my opinion they were off base. They were simply indulging the lusts of their Christian base of financial support for whom accusations like these are like red meat to a starving lion.
In Rome they threw Christians to the lions. Some Christians would throw homosexuals to the lions.
August 11th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1186557407743&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Aug. 9, 2007 14:01 | Updated Aug. 9, 2007 22:27
Another Tack: Cluing Condi in
By SARAH HONIG
US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is by all accounts studiously professorial and smarter than the average State Department hack. Hence, perhaps, her schoolmarmy tone and authoritative demeanor here last week, during yet another stopover to reform benighted natives by reprimand and further the cause of her boss’s “vision” for a Palestinian state.
In addition to everything that has so far gone vexingly awry en route to G.W.’s two-state-solution, the Palestinians violently split themselves into two mutually antagonistic components, a complication sure to diminish their self-government’s anyway improbable viability.
But is Condi disheartened? Heck no! Her latest mantra is “a Palestinian state first.” Presumably once that state is hocus-pocused into nominal existence (and once Bush expiates Arab wrath at Israel’s expense), Palestinian independence would provide impetus to unify rival Palestinian militias.
That’s about as realistic an assumption as underpinned the last attempt to create two states between the Jordan and the Mediterranean - on November 29, 1947, when the UN General Assembly approved this tiny territory’s partition into a Palestinian Arab state and a pitifully puny, terrifyingly vulnerable Jewish counterpart (wedged mainly along the coastal highway between Tel Aviv and Haifa). Jerusalem was consigned to international administration, and the entire unlikely shebang was to form one economic unit in the abiding spirit of brotherly love. ….
August 11th, 2007 at 4:15 pm
“What do you think of that idea? When I call for vengeance, I am speaking of YHWH’s vengeance.”
What I think is that that is extremely presumptuous to claim to be YHWH’s spokesman. Moses you are not. Our “job” is to pray for the wicked. We are not entitled to “give up” on someone whom God has not given up on. We have no way of knowing that. In summary, our main responsibility is to develop a healthy sense of humility. Then you realize that you are not so different than they, or only by degree perhaps.
from the Baal Shem Tov on the Torah — Parshat Kedoshim 2
2. . . . When one sees an evil person doing something reprehensible, commiting a powerful sin, he should judge him favorably — that the sin was the result of being driven by an overwhelming urge, or as a result of gross physicality, or that he does not know the sin’s severity, etc. Through this he saves himself from judgement. In reality, when a person sees another’s sin he should realize that he has a similar fault, that there is an accusation and harsh judgement against him. When he finds a merit in his friend’s behavior he will also be considered meritorious . . . .
This is really a great test. We have received the teaching that no judgement is made against a person unless he himself rules it. Now a person will certainly not rule negatively against himself. Rather, Heaven shows him a man that commits some sin similar to the one he did and he passes judgement on it, thereby passing judgement on himself.
3. . . . He should try and bring them to repent with all his might and cleanse them from the filth of their sin, and realize that the same fault lies within himself. Concerning one’s self, one always finds merits; so he should find merits and lovingkindness in all of Israel. Their common denominator is that they are all righteous, all pure and all worthy of all of the blessings . . .”
August 11th, 2007 at 4:39 pm
What I think is that that is extremely presumptuous to claim to be YHWH’s spokesman. Moses you are not. Our “job” is to pray for the wicked. We are not entitled to “give up” on someone whom God has not given up on. We have no way of knowing that. In summary, our main responsibility is to develop a healthy sense of humility. Then you realize that you are not so different than they, or only by degree perhaps.>>>>
How do you know I am no Moses? What gives you the right to say this? The Christian believer’s job is to pray for the wicked; wicked men like Bush. You ought to know, Jews have no such commandment from YHWH.
I believe God indicated to me that Bush has gone too far. Maybe he can be redeemed but I do not feel called to redeem the monster. Maybe God wants you to redeem him and pray for him?
I do have a healthy sense of humility. That is why I know I haven’t the ability to help Mr. Bush. Why would you think otherwise?
August 11th, 2007 at 5:45 pm
” Jews have no such commandment from YHWH.”
The Baal Shem Tov wasn’t a Jew? Jews are to pray for the whole world, Jews and non-Jews alike, that they return to Hashem.
You think you are a Moses? Again, check with your rabbi on that. Your head is getting too big for your hat.
What makes me so sure? Because Moses was shaken to his core, devastated, by his encounter and calling. He actually refused YHWH at first, begging for Aaron to be chosen because he felt so totally inadequate to the task. He had a profound sese of humility, which is probably why he was chosen in the first place. I don’t see that in you, which is why I think otherwise.
You are more than ready to deliver a message and to claim to speak in G-d’s name as His spokesman. Your letter, for example, seems quite arrogant if I may say so. Moses you are not. Neither are you an Isaiah or a Jeremiah. Same reason.
I don’t know if you can help Bush or not. Your praying for him is for YOUR benefit as much as his. You have more than enough on your plate just working on yourself, your lack of humility, as do I. Pray for Bush, leave him to Hashem, and then pray for yourself and for me.
August 11th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
I do not follow Baal Shem Tov. He was a Jew who was hated and despised by mainstream Orthodoxy perhaps unfairly.
The Gaon of Vilna, Elijah ben Shlomo Zalman, urged his followers, “Persecute them.” The Hasidim. I don’t follow him either.
Nevertheless, I do not follow Baal Shem Tov.
August 11th, 2007 at 6:04 pm
John, I will pray for you. I think you need prayer from a Jew.
You are a lost soul, “in my humble opinion.” I will pray for you.
August 11th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
That would be good. A start. Remember to pray for the whole world too. I’ll do the same. Thank you.
August 11th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
You don’t have to follow the BST. But he got that idea of praying for the wicked from somewhere, i.e., he was a Jew whatever else you may think of him.
August 11th, 2007 at 6:46 pm
I once discussed religion with my Chassidic friend Miriam in Jerusalem on an Internet forum.
Miriam believed everything was in the hand of HaShem. Nothing that happened was outside HaShem’s will. Thus Chassidic Jews seemed to me to be passive and determinisic; everything belonged to HaShem’s realm.
I asked Miriam why Chassids did not protest this evil government and the expulsions, etc.
I never got a satisfactory answer John. It was, well, Hashem is in control of everything.
Then there was this horrible suicide bombing in the center of Jerusalem, in the mist of the Chassidic stronghold. I can’t remember whether it was in a Chassidic market place or Chassidim on their way to prayer. I can’t remember. Scores of Chassidic Jews were murdered; many more were maimed.
My friend Miriam was philosophical about it. Hashem was in control. I wanted her to say she was ashamed of Israel’s weak and pathetic government. But no, Hashem is in control.
August 11th, 2007 at 7:03 pm
It takes great courage, great faith to believe and to affirm that Hashem is in control in the face of something like that. A good parent can be in control even when things within an around the family are out of control. It means that the parent’s love is steadfast and unwavering and that she or he is there with them whatever happens, whatever the government.
Isn’t there is a mitzvah that Jews are to pray for whatever government they may be subject to?
August 11th, 2007 at 8:19 pm
“The Christian believer’s job is to pray for the wicked; wicked men like Bush. You ought to know, Jews have no such commandment from YHWH.”
From the Aleinu, prayed three times a day!
…Therefore we put our hope in You, Adonai our God, to soon see the glory of Your strength, to remove all idols from the Earth, and to completely cut off all false gods; to repair the world, Your holy empire. And for all living flesh to call Your name, and for all the wicked of the Earth to turn to You. May all the world’s inhabitants recognize and know that to You every knee must bend and every tongue must swear loyalty. Before You, Adonai, our God, may all bow down, and give honor to Your precious name, and may all take upon themselves the yoke of Your rule. And may You reign over them soon and forever and always. Because all rule is Yours alone, and You will rule in honor forever and ever. As it is written in Your Torah: “Adonai will reign forever and ever.” And it is said: “Adonai will be Ruler over the whole Earth, and on that day, God will be One, and God’s name will be One.”
If that’s not a prayer for the whole world, including for the wicked, I don’t know what is. l’takken olam b’malkut Shaddai. In Pirkei Avoth 1:2 the Mishna records that Shimon the Righteous, one of the last surviving members of the Great Assembly, used to say that prayer (avodah) was one of the three things on which the survival of the world depended. So, not only are you supposed to do it but it is vital that you do. Three times a day no less!
August 12th, 2007 at 5:19 am
Isn’t there is a mitzvah that Jews are to pray for whatever government they may be subject to? >>>>
I think it is in the book of Jeremiah. The prophet exhorts Israel to seek the peace of the nation wherein they / we are exiled.
I believe I am doing this. President Bush is seeking America’s destruction. Why should I pray for God to bless him all the while he is seeking to harm America?
The president and his father have made a fortune from our enemies. He should never have been selected by the GOP as a potential president. Surely they knew his family background and all these sordid dealings with Saudi princes.
Saudis bought out Bush’s failing Harken Energy venture at a handsome profit; formerly Arbusto Energy. Read about it and about the connection between Harken Energy and Khalid bin Mahfouz. They saw in George Herbert Walker’s Bush’s son a potential future president they could cultivate. And they did. And Americans are paying the price.
August 12th, 2007 at 6:58 am
“Why should I pray for God to bless him all the while he is seeking to harm America?”
In the Aleinu (”It is incumbent upon us…”) Jews pray three times a day “for the wicked of the world to return to You.” If the wicked actually do return to G-d, it would be a blessing to them and also to everyone else.
Torah study, prayer, acts of lovingkindness. On those three things the world depends. According to Shimon the Righteous.
August 12th, 2007 at 7:41 am
In other words John, let’s keep this simple. It makes no difference whether it is the Christian Bible, the Talmud or the “aleinu.” Unless it comports with the Law of Moses and the prophets, it is rejected by Klein. What is so very difficult about this? Torah, study, prayer and acts of loving kindness are all good. I have no obligation to demonstrate acts of loving kindness toward the wicked.
King David learned this lesson the hard way when he sought to demonstrate an act of loving kindness toward the wicked (2Sam chapter 10).
Were I to meet Mr. Bush, I suppose I would be polite, maybe even respectful of the office but for the man, I have virtually lost all my respect for him.
August 12th, 2007 at 8:23 am
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L
IDF officials warn of Gaza threat
Two years after disengagement, senior officers say decision-makers ignored their warnings prior to pullout, estimate Hamas building army in order to attack Israel. Expert: Confrontation may spill to West Bank
Hanan Greenberg Published: 08.12.07, 15:35 / Israel News
Two years after the disengagement from Gaza, some senior IDF officials maintain that they had warned a pullout would lead to an escalation in Gaza, while others estimate that the current situation in the Strip is explosive and dangerous for Israel.
“The easiest thing is to say that the military intelligence did not issue a warning and failed to predict the developments,” former IDF intelligence chief Brig.-Gen. Aharon Ze’evi Farkash said recently. “When we prepared for the disengagement, we mentioned all the scenarios for what might happen in the Strip, including the possibility of a ‘Hamastan’.”
According to Farkash, it was the decision-makers who chose to take the risk and carry on with the pullout, despite intelligence warnings…..
August 12th, 2007 at 8:41 am
“Were I to meet Mr. Bush, I suppose I would be polite, maybe even respectful of the office but for the man, I have virtually lost all my respect for him.”
You are better than me, Steve. I don’t think I could be in the same room with him.
August 12th, 2007 at 9:48 am
“I have no obligation to demonstrate acts of loving kindness toward the wicked.”
Just for Christians? Not in the Torah? Not so fast. A number of verses in the law and the prophets at least have to be considered.
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself. I AM YHWH.” veahavta l’reyakha kamokha ani YHWH Leviticus 19:18
Both Jesus and Rabbi Hillel said that was the essence of the law and the prophets. Neighbors almost by definition are people we tend to find troublesome, contentious, annoying, litigious. And those are the nice things!
My neighbor? OK. What about my enemy?
“If you meet your enemy’s ox or his donkey going astray, you shall bring it back to him. If you see the donkey of one who hates you lying down under its burden, you shall refrain from leaving him with it; you shall rescue it along with him.” Exodus 23:4
Most of what Jesus said was already in Judaism. I don’t think you can really dodge these mitzvot and slough them off on Christians.
Anyway, it should at least be obvious you are not supposed to pray for G-d to kill / destroy anyone. That would be offering a human sacrifice to Hashem, or even making Hashem into your hitman!
Ezekiel 18
“The word of the Lord came to me, saying: “What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel, saying: `The fathers eat sour grapes, and the sons’ teeth are set on edge?’ As I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. For every living soul belongs to Me, the father as well as the son — they are Mine. Which ever soul sins, it shall die…. Yet you ask: Why did the son not bear the sin of the father? But the son, justice and righteousness did he do, all My decrees did he safeguard and perform them. He shall surely live. The soul that sins, it shall die! The son shall not bear for the sin of the father, nor the father bear for the sin of the son. The righteousness of the righteous person shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked person shall be upon him. As for the wicked man, if he should turn away from all his sins which he did, and safeguard all My decrees, and do justice and righteousness; he shall surely live. He will not die. All his transgressions which he committed will not be remembered against him. For the righteousness which he did, he shall live. Do I desire at all the death of the wicked man — the words of my Lord, God — is it not rather his return from his ways, that he might live.”
So, that’s what we should pray for, “his return from his ways, that he might live,” just as Abraham pleaded to Hashem that Sodom might be spared.
August 12th, 2007 at 10:55 am
“If you meet your enemy’s ox or his donkey going astray, you shall bring it back to him. If you see the donkey of one who hates you lying down under its burden, you shall refrain from leaving him with it; you shall rescue it along with him.” Exodus 23:4>>>
These are interesting commandment that you cite. Do you think this might be your brother or neighbor with whom you are having a spat? Maybe not Osama bin Laden?
Nonetheless, I’m sure you know there are many commandments obligating us to be compassionate to our mute friends. “The righteous man has regard for the life of his beast; but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.”
What do you say about this prayer? These were some of the prophets own fellow Jews!
Jer 11:18 Moreover, the LORD made it known to me and I knew it; Then You showed me their deeds.
But I was like a gentle lamb led to the slaughter; And I did not know that they had devised plots against me, saying, “Let us destroy the tree with its fruit, And let us cut him off from the land of the living, That his name be remembered no more.”
But, O LORD of hosts, who judges righteously, Who tries the feelings and the heart, Let me see Your vengeance on them, For to You have I committed my cause.
Therefore thus says the LORD concerning the men of Anathoth, who seek your life, saying, “Do not prophesy in the name of the LORD, so that you will not die at our hand”;
therefore, thus says the LORD of hosts, “Behold, I am about to punish them! The young men will die by the sword, their sons and daughters will die by famine;
and a remnant will not be left to them, for I will bring disaster on the men of Anathoth–the year of their punishment.”
August 12th, 2007 at 11:23 am
What do I say? I think you need to quit worrying about the vengeance of the LORD and leave that to the LORD, while also praying that the sinners (”the wicked”) repent and (re)turn to the LORD and be spared. He does not desire the death of a sinner (”a wicked man”). We should take our cue from that and never pray for the death of a wicked person.
Cartoon this week. Bin Laden is talking to a companion in a cave. “We must attack America’s infrastructure before it collapses.”
August 12th, 2007 at 12:09 pm
in Jer.18:19 ff, he does pray for YHWH’s vengeance. However note:
1) This was after he had first stood before YHWH to speak in their defense and to pray that YHWH would turn away his wrath from them (18:20)
2) This was after they had plotted to kill Jeremiah, despite all his efforts in their behalf (18:18-20).
So, these gangsters have now turned on their defense lawyer and put out a contract on him. The last straw…as far as Jeremiah is concerned. But notice that there are about thirty more chapters of warnings. Jeremiah has given up on them; YHWH has not yet.
August 12th, 2007 at 5:53 pm
But notice that there are about thirty more chapters of warnings. Jeremiah has given up on them; YHWH>>>>>
This is true and a lesson to those who say the “Old Testment” God of ruffians like David was a vindictive, blood-thirsty God by contrast with the “New Testament” God of love.
We’ve got to take the destruction of Jerusalem in the context of century after century of prophetic warnings. This did not happen within one generation but over many generations.
August 12th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
Yes that is a mischaracterization of God that in its most extremem forms is actually heretical. Marcion for example taught that there were actually two different gods!
August 12th, 2007 at 6:54 pm
Marcion for example taught that there were actually two different gods!>>>
Marcion is who I had in mind. Marcion’s thinking is still alive and well.
August 12th, 2007 at 7:10 pm
There was the famous Jefferson Bible, for example. And while they are not quite so popular as in decades past, there are still lots of “New Testament with Psalms” printed and sold.
August 12th, 2007 at 8:39 pm
Mitch– our group will be showing the film “The Diaries of Yossef Nachmani” which uses interviews and archival footage along with diaries to tell the story of the the earliest days of the JNF/Keren Kayemet land purchase/grabs from the Arabs, especially in Tiberias: the ethnic cleansing strategy is at least 60 years old.
It’s difficult and expensive to see the film, but worth it.
http://www.frif.com/new2006/diar.html
Available from First Run Icarus Films mailroom@frif.com
August 13th, 2007 at 8:23 am
Hazel Kahan wrote: “diaries tell the story of the the earliest days of the JNF/Keren Kayemet land purchase/grabs from the Arabs, especially in Tiberias: the ethnic cleansing strategy is at least 60 years old.”
http://www.frif.com/new2006/diar.html
“….More radical elements were also active within the Zionist movement, however, especially throughout the British Mandate period leading up to the 1947 UN Resolution which partitioned Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, and whose violent tactics precipitated the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as we know it today.”
I am curious Hazel, why do you not spend your valuable time studying the land grabs, the despoliation and expulsions of the five civilized Indian tribes by White Europeans as I have been doing, Manifest Destiny, etc.? It seems to me this would be lots more informative and useful than trying to make the Jews look like horrible beasts. Why this obsession with the Jews and their crimes?
Where is your group by the way? Is it here in the US? It seems to me American citizens and their government have plenty to answer for, before we treat with the Jews.
I’m not a Christion. Still I think the guy (the founder of Christianity) might have been on to something when I read this sort of thing above:
“…In the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
“Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
“Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?
“You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
August 13th, 2007 at 10:04 am
Jesus meant that God judges us in same the manner we judge others.
He also said this:
Luke 17:3-6 “Take heed to yourselves; if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
And this:
Matthew 18:15 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 “But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.[Deuteronomy 19:15] 17 “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.”
August 13th, 2007 at 10:29 am
Jesus meant that God judges us in same the manner we judge others. >>>>
Right. And particularly incisive is the statement to remove the log out of your own eye before you seek to take the speck out of your brother’s eye. The point being that your sin is many times more egregious to God in light of the fact that you are harshly and unfairly judging your brother or your neighbor.
You are an American citizen. Perhaps Hazel Kahan is as well. You, Hazel Kahan and Jimmy Carter are harshly judging Israel for her alleged crimes.
Americans and our government have perpetrated unspeakable crimes against the innocent and the defenseless.
Why shouldn’t God harshly judge those Americans who judge Israel harshly?
August 13th, 2007 at 11:28 am
“Why shouldn’t God harshly judge those Americans who judge Israel harshly?”
That’s the risk you take when you do it, but there does come a time when you must rebuke your brother if he sins (Luke 17; Matthew 18). You do that so that he will repent and then you must forgive him. For if your brother sins and you do not try to bring him to repentance, his guilt is on you as well for remaining silent.
August 13th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
Leviticus 19:17
“You must not hate your brother in your heart. You must surely reprove your fellow citizen so that you do not incur sin on account of him.”
August 13th, 2007 at 12:53 pm
True but there are some sins that I see in others, I simply do not feel well-qualified reproving; areas in which my life has been less than stellar or exemplary if you get my meaning.
Consequently, I tread very carefully, otherwise I can be fairly accused of hypocrisy and have been accused of hypocrisy.
So we learn when and where to tread carefully in reproving sin.
I do not see this however from these historically expansionist / imperialist nations, like the U.S., that are continually hammering, lecturing and reproving Israel for her alleged sins.
August 13th, 2007 at 1:34 pm
hammering, lecturing and reproving
Part of the problem is that you are using moralistic vocabulary to describe American foreign policy / diplomacy. I believe this goes to the words of both Jesus and Leviticus regarding reproving the neighbor or brother when he sins. It must not be done with hatred in the heart or a holier-than-thou attitude. I believe “lecturing” would fall into that category too. As I have said, there is no need for the U.S. to cast moral blame on Israel, to try and make Israel feel guilty or to shame Israel, as though speaking in moral condescension. That is what is referred to in the words of Jesus and Leviticus. But the words also say that the reproval is not optional, lest the brother’s or neighbor’s sin be upon you as well. It is just that when you do that, as they both say, you must “Love your neighbor as yourself” i.e., without malice in your heart. When the U.S. Dept of State speaks with the Israeli Foreign Ministry, it is assumed they are on the same moral plane, operating with the same moral values, and are moral equals. The matters that are being discussed have to do with treaty obligations, international law, etc. Now you may think certain writers or pundits or bloggers are “hammering, lecturing, or reproving” Israel. That’s not what the United States is doing, however. You are providing some emotional coloring, in other words. So, with all due respect, I believe you are reacting to your emotionally-conditioned perceptions rather than something that is there in reality.
August 13th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
You wrote: “When the U.S. Dept of State speaks with the Israeli Foreign Ministry, it is assumed they are on the same moral plane, operating with the same moral values, and are moral equals. The matters that are being discussed have to do with treaty obligations, international law, etc. >>>>
John, I do not for a minute expect that the U.S. State Department, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, George W. Bush or other elected U.S. official, appointed bureaucrat, etc., operates or makes foreign policy decisions on the basis of any kind of morality, justice or higher law, but on the basis of naked, unmitigated national self-interest.
George Washington made it clear time and again that nations are guided by self interest and he was right.
In this case, throughout the Middle East, imperious American power and might is employed in the interest of controlling the free-flow of natural resources in the region, i.e., oil.
American efforts at hammering Israel into suicidal concessions of land to inveterate Jew-hating enemies has absolutely nothing to do with morals, ethical principles or justice.
You will never, ever convince me otherwise. America has a long imperialist track-record John and it is nearly all about national selfish interests; not justice, equity or righteousness.
August 13th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
[not] on the basis of any kind of morality
it is nearly all about national selfish interests; not justice, equity or righteousness
In a way, that is exactly my point, Steve. Your argument is a moral one. You are saying America has no moral ground on which to stand and preach a sermon at Israel. Correct? That is after all what is meant by “hammering, lecturing, and reproving.” You are talking about America giving a moral sermon, which you resent.
But it is not doing that, as you yourself have just said. America in its diplomacy is only acting in terms of self defense. There is no sermon there. No lecturing.
Your description of American policy and diplomacy, what you object to, is like a Ted Turner movie. You have colorized it. You are making it sound like “hammering, lecturing, and reproving.” Like a sermon. It’s not. It’s just self-interest, one sovereign nation speaking to another about international law and treaty obligations. You may not like it, but don’t make it worse than it is by putting this moralizing spin on it which is not there.
August 13th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
You are saying America has no moral ground on which to stand and preach a sermon at Israel. Correct? That is after all what is meant by “hammering, lecturing, and reproving.” You are talking about America giving a moral sermon, which you resent.
But it is not doing that, as you yourself have just said. America in its diplomacy is only acting in terms of self defense. There is no sermon there. No lecturing.>>>>>
But American leaders like Bush cloak what we are doing in the Middle East in these moralistic terms. “Operation Iraqi Freedom,” for instance.
It’s all deception. It’s bunk. Americans do not care by and large about the peoples in the Middle East or whether they are ruled by a monarch, a dictator or by some form of democracy.
We want our petrol for our gas-guzzling SUV’s, for our boats and all our other toys by God! If the Arabs should impose another embargo like they did after the Yom Kippur war, Americans will curse those “damnable Jews!”
What do you think? This is a nation full of saints? This one national radio talk show hosts is nightly tearing Bush apart for his war in Iraq because Bush is needlessly placing our young men over there at risk. He says, “I don’t care about the people of Iraq!”
He speaks for millions of Americans. If they were to conduct a poll, how many Americans could truthfully say they care about the Iraqi people?
August 13th, 2007 at 3:53 pm
I have yet to hear even Bush lecture or preach at Israel, Steve. When he does pontificate on the Arab-Israeli conflict, he preaches at the Palestinians; not the Israelis. You may not trust him, you may not think he is a true friend of Israel, you may think he is only interested in oil, but he doesn’t preach at Israel.
August 13th, 2007 at 6:07 pm
you may think he is only interested in oil, but he doesn’t preach at Israel.>>>>>
All I can say to you John is this. You have a very dull (non-Jewish) ear.
August 13th, 2007 at 7:27 pm
And to you I’d say there will likely never be another president more pro-Israel than Bush. Never. Bush is a Christian-Zionist fortheloveofheaven. Arik Sharon had him wrapped around his little finger. Bush did zip for seven years. Would not speak to or negotiate with Arafat. Would barely speak to Abbas. Really had no policy. He only did what Sharon told him. Allowed Olmert to whale away at Lebanon without lifting a finger. If you are hoping or expecting more than that, you are in need of a reality check.
August 13th, 2007 at 8:07 pm
And to you I’d say there will likely never be another president more pro-Israel than Bush. Never. Bush is a Christian-Zionist >>>
I hold Bush responsible for the expulsion of some 9-10,000 Jews from their homes. Some Christian Zionist! Sharon is a Jewish traitor.
August 13th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
“Sharon is a Jewish traitor.”
Now that’s hilarious. I have gradually come to realize, Steve, that there are very, very, few people you don’t hold responsible for something, for some treachery, some perfidy, some atrocity, some moral failing, some insult or defamation. You are holding the entire world responsible for something or other. It’s quite astonishing when you get a glimpse of the dimensions of the situation.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:37 am
“I hold Bush responsible for the expulsion of some 9-10,000 Jews from their homes. Some Christian Zionist!”
Bush is as good as it gets. There will likely never be a (non-Jewish) president as pro-Israel as he because he is a Christian Zionist. In addition he is about as anti-Palestinian as they come because he has wrapped himself in the Global War on Terror® which Sharon helped him identify with Palestinian militancy. He also has identified Iran and Syria as part of his “axis of evil.”
August 14th, 2007 at 9:11 am
My goodness John. You are too easily seduced. A leader speaks soothing words and you believe him.
George W. Bush is as good as it gets? If Mr. Bush is a friend of Israel, I’d hate to see an enemy. Don’t get me wrong, he is no Hitler but neither is he a freind. I don’t know how you define a “Christian Zionists.” Your definition is not my definition.
Bush can wrap himself in the “global war on terrorism” all he wants. He’s a unmitigated failure. He identified Iran and Syria as part of the axis of evil and now he’s negotiating with this axis of evil; something he said he’d never do. Is word is worthless.
Bush would negotiate with the devil himself, with Adolf Hitler if he thought it would help the free-flow of oil from the Middle East. This man is what my late father used to call a political pros–tute.
August 14th, 2007 at 2:41 pm
” You are too easily seduced.”
I am not seduced at all, because I have no interest in his message. But as it concerns your side, he is as good as it gets. If you don’t recognize that, your expectations are simply too unrealistic. No president of the US will ever satisfy your expectations and demands vis-a-vis Israel, let’s put it that way. He’s as good as it gets.
August 14th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
I won’t deny that many conservative Jews and Christians agree with your view, Bush is as good as it gets.
But let’s look at the facts, not feelings which is what guides most people including conservative Jews and Christians.
I will grant you that Bush says a lot of the sort of ‘red meat’ things that make conservative Jews and Christians wet their panties but his empty and worthless rhetoric — “Israel is our friend” — is meaningless to this Jew. This Oval Office tergiversator / equivocator is very slick indeed.
I watch what he does more than I listen to what the deceiver says.
I think we can both agree, virtually every U.S. president since 1967 Six Day war has sought territorial compromise from Israel. Jimmy Carter got the Camp David Accords and made Begin into a traitor in the minds and hearts of many on the right.
Worse, George W. Bush got Israel to expel thousands of Jews from Gaza and northern Samaria; from BIBLICAL ISRAEL; he got the architect of the settlement enterprise to do this; Israel’s hero-general did this treacherous act to the Jews. This is why I say Sharon is considered a traitor in the minds of many Jews.
This is why Bush has been marvelously successful dividing the Holy Land, beyond that of any former president. He is as good as it gets dismantling the Holy Land.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:56 pm
If you do not think he is as good as it gets, then you need to demonstrate the likelihood of electing a US president who will be more pro-Israel. It’s not going to happen, unless Joe Liebermann is somehow elected. And if he did get elected and did any single thing you didn’t like you’d probably call him a Jewish traitor. That’s why Bush is as good as it gets, because your expectations are so unrealistic that not even Bush or Sharon can pass muster with you. Bush is, I hope, the most extreme we’ve got. Still that’s not extreme enough for you. Get real.
August 15th, 2007 at 9:01 am
Actually you are right. At this point I do not really expect to see a US president who is pro-Israel to my satisfaction. I suspect the US may have already crossed the precipice.
You know the story of Pharaoh who oppressed the Israelites and held them in bondage. Did God help Pharaoh to do the right thing by the Israelites and free them from bondage? No. God hardened Pharaoh’s heart.
I view the current situation as one big divine test on the nations. How will the nations react to God gathering the children of Israel back into our land?
Up to now, the nations, including the US, are doing precisely what the prophet warned them / us not to do. They are gathering against Israel and Jerusalem. Ultimately they will gather for battle against Jerusalem as the prophet foretold.
Why is this? Why would ostensibly Christian nations fall into the trap of fulfilling prophecy against them?
But what is concerns me more are our so-called Christian friends, many of them Evangelicals. Christians United For Israel (CUFI) recently held its annual summit in Washington. I asked CUFI leaders including Pastor John Hagee and Gary Bauer to send a formal resolution to GOP leaders urging them to remove offensive language that Bush had placed in our 2004 national party platform calling for the expulsion of Jews from our land and for the establishment of a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.
These are bible-believing Christians mind you John, who believe God gave the land Israel to the Jews forever! Yet even these so-called stauch allies are tragically compromising.
Pastor Hagee, in the name of CUFI, wrote a letter to Bush essentially ending the letter by telling Bush CUFI’s conditions for peace with the Palestinians. Bush had to be ecstatic reading this letter, dripping with adoration and adulation! I can send you a link if you wish to read the letter. The letter is self-contradictory and this from our Christian friends.
In other words John, the word of God is not really the word of God to Pastor Hagge and his followers! CUFI’s God is a God of compromise, capitulation and deal-making!
Beam me up Scotti!
August 15th, 2007 at 7:21 pm
“These are bible-believing Christians mind you John, who believe God gave the land Israel to the Jews forever! Yet even these so-called stauch allies are tragically compromising…the word of God is not really the word of God to Pastor Hagge and his followers! CUFI’s God is a God of compromise, capitulation and deal-making!”
What did I tell you?