Sun 12 Aug 2007
Getting Past Blame: Present Realities and How To Move Forward
Posted by Mitchell Plitnick under Israel , Palestine , United States , United Nations , Hamas , Fatah , Settlements , Gaza , West Bank , Ehud Barak , Camp David , Peace Plans , Academics , Israeli landVirtually any article, except for unusually long ones, necessarily narrows its focus and leaves out important aspects of the broad subject it is discussing. In facile, pseudo-intellectual attacks, those who disagree with such articles often point out what is not there, as if it is possible, in just a few pages, to consider the breadth and scope of any problem, much less one as complex as the Israel-Palestine conflict.
In the new edition of the London Review of Books, there is a pair of articles, however, which, when taken together, give a fairly rounded view of the situation as it stands now in Israel and the Palestinian Territories. Making them perhaps more valuable and credible, the article criticizing Israel is written by a Jewish former executive director of the American Jewish Congress, Henry Siegman; while the article criticizing the Palestinians is written by an American of Palestinian ancestry, Prof. Rashid Khalidi.
Khalidi continues a theme explored in his superb book, The Iron Cage:The Story of the Palestinian Struggle for Statehood. Palestinians are often portrayed, by themselves and others in very distorted ways. By pro-occupation zealots, they are depicted as far more powerful than they are, and powerful enough to constitute a substantial threat to Israel. That characterization is absurd on its face, and it is a measure of the hysteria this subject can generate that there is a significant, albeit minority, number of people who actually
believe it. But they are also often portrayed by their own supporters, and even at times by themselves, as completely helpless actors who are pure victims and have no role in creating the situation they now find themselves in. Khalidi’s valuable self-criticism paints a more realistic picture.
In “Shared Irresponsibility,” Khalidi draws careful attention to the actions of both Fatah and Hamas in creating the split that exists now in the Palestinian political body and which finds its expression in a geographical split between the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Khalidi writes, “Fatah and Hamas have been fighting for control of a Palestinian Authority that has no real authority. The behavior of both has been disgraceful…In the four decades since the founding of the PLO, there has never been such a gulf between two parts of the [Palestinian] national movement.”
Khalidi shines a glaring light on the lack of strategy and the inherent contradictions in the actions of Hamas since entering the 2006 elections. The roles of governing leadership and spearheading a revolutionary movement are fundamentally incompatible, yet Hamas, Khalidi says, tried to play both. One might also say that Yasir Arafat tried the same thing, to a lesser degree, and Fatah’s mix of politicians and working with Israel and militias like the al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigade attacking it.
As Uri Avnery pointed out in his latest piece, “Oslo Revisited,” the Palestinians find themselves in a position that is extremely out of the ordinary. They are trying to set up the trappings of a government while still being under occupation, so that government has, ultimately, no real power, only that which is granted it by the occupying power. Avnery explains it this way: “Usually, when a national liberation movement reaches its goal, the change takes place in one move. A day before, the French ruled Algeria, on the morrow it was taken over by the freedom fighters. The governance of South Africa was transferred
from the white minority to the black majority in one sweep.”
But the Palestinians are not shifting from a resistance movement to an independent government. They are stuck in a middle ground, one where the prospects of independence are remote and remain completely at the whim of Israel. Khalidi asks “how can [Hamas] claim to be a resistance movement and at the same time deal with Israel about practical matters such as the movement of water, fuel and food into Gaza, and of goods and people into and out of Gaza?” While Mahmoud Abbas, as leader of Fatah, has not had the political support necessary to stop attacks on Israel, he has clearly, for better or worse, chosen the path of politics over that of armed resistance. His new Prime Minister, Salam Fayyad, has essentially re-defined resistance for his government as non-violent. Hamas has made no such choice.
For its part, Fatah has refused to learn the lessons of its defeat in 2006. It has been supported in this refusal by Israel and the United States, even to the point where these two powers supplied arms to Fatah in support of their goal of deposing Hamas despite the results of that election in 2006. Hamas, as Khalidi points out, repeatedly offered to form a unity government with Fatah, but Fatah “…behaved as if their policies had been vindicated, as if they had an inalienable right to office…When some Fatah leaders…wanted to take up Hamas’ offer, Fatah diehards (and some Hamas hardliners) torpedoed the initiative, as they did the Saudi-brokered coalition government created in February 2007.”
Rather than address the issues that led to Fatah losing its once absolute hold on the top spot in Palestinian politics, they worked to undermine the outcome of the 2006 election, with the support of Israel and the US in a clear expression by all three of contempt for the democratic process. As Khalidi points out, “Neither movement was able to see that such deep divisions would mean that they had even less chance of achieving their national objectives.” In the end, both Fatah and Hamas have made an already desperate situation for Palestinians much worse.
Khalidi breaks with the common narrative of the Palestinians as pure victims and non-actors in their own issues. Thus, while Henry Siegman may go too far in blaming Israel exclusively for the impasse in the Middle East, his critique of the “peace process” as an elaborate scam is an important one.
Israel, as the far more powerful party, has far more potential to change this situation than the Palestinians do. Khalidi does not miss this point, but Siegman emphasizes it. There is a good deal of haze around Israel’s inactivity. It is not because of dishonesty that many defenders of Israel’s policies claim that Israel has given and given and the Palestinians, because of their alleged overwhelming desire to annihilate Jews that trumps all their other concerns, have responded only with escalating violence. The fact is, most of the people making that claim genuinely believe it. This is where the peace process “scam” has its greatest impact.
Oslo is seen in this context as a huge concession by Israel, while the fact that the Palestinians see the real concession as having been almost two decades ago, when Yasir Arafat conceded 78% of Mandatory Palestine to Israel. Oslo is perceived as having given an enormous amount to the Palestinians, because few people realize that Oslo contained no commitment to any kind of Palestinian independence. The Gaza withdrawal is not
understood as what it was–a mere redeployment of Israeli resources which left Gaza completely isolated, its borders, shoreline and air space all completely under Israeli control in order to, as Ariel Sharon’s adviser Dov Weisglass famously put it “put the peace process in formaldehyde”, meaning that it would free Israel from pressure to withdraw from the West Bank.
But the most important point Siegman makes is about the political impetus for Israel to withdraw from the West Bank. Siegman quotes former IDF Chief of Staff and Defense Minister, Moshe Dayan, circa 1977: “The question is not ‘What is the solution?’ but ‘How do we live without a solution?’” Dayan understood there was no peace without returning the Occupied Territories, and he believed Israel must hold on to those territories.
Much time has passed since then, and there is a general consensus supporting territorial concession in Israel. This is true despite the intentional setup of the Gaza withdrawal (see more on this here) and the campaign of deception and blame after the collapse of the 2000 Camp David talks (more on this here). As Avnery says, “The concept of ‘the Whole of Eretz-Israel’ is finally dead. There exists a national consensus about an exchange of territories that would make possible the annexation of the ’settlement blocs’ to Israel and the dismantling of all the other settlements. The real debate is no longer between the
annexation of the entire West Bank and its partial annexation, but between partial annexation (the areas west of the wall as well as the Jordan valley) and the return of almost all the occupied territories.”
Still, the Israeli government is in no hurry to see this happen. There are various reasons, and the disproportionate influence of the settlers and their right-wing supporters both in Israel and abroad should not be underestimated. But the biggest reason is that the willingness to make peace is not the question; rather, the question is what price is one willing to pay for peace?
Israel is more than willing, as Siegman points out, to exchange some land for peace. The current discourse, which was also reflected in Ehud Barak’s so-called “generous offer” at Camp David, has Israel maintaining control over the major settlement blocs (meaning Gush Etzion, Ariel and Ma’ale Adumim) and the Jordan Valley. This would leave the West Bank connected only by thin strips of land, at best, and would cut off the Palestinians’ access to Jordan. Essentially, what Siegman describes as “a number of isolated enclaves that Palestinians could call a state” is what is being offered. Not surprisingly, it is not being accepted. Equally unsurprising is that Israelis see this as intransigence on the Palestinians’ part, while the Palestinians are wondering why, after agreeing to surrender 78% of Palestine they are now negotiating how much of the 22% they get to keep.
Siegman reports on an interview with former Defense Ministry adviser Haggai Alon which describes how the Israel Defense Forces support the endeavors of the settlers. This is a major wild card within Israel, one that is not talked about nearly enough. the influence of the army is far greater than it should be in a country like Israel. Such countries generally agree that the government controls the military, but in Israel, the military wields considerable influence and often acts on its own impetus. While the government does sometimes react to this, the reverence of the military in Israel weakens the government’s hand considerably. When we further consider the major contributions to the settlement enterprise made in the Israeli government, as the investigator, Talia Sason began to detail a few years ago, we see a sort of schizophrenia in Israeli power centers that magnify the power of the settlers beyond any rational expectation.
Siegman also makes the important point that UNSC Resolution 242 is being interpreted by Israel as meaning that its “‘…default setting’…is the indefinite continuation of Israel’s occupation.” But logically, since “…242 declares that territory cannot be acquired by war…if the parties cannot reach agreement, the occupier must withdraw to the status quo ante.”
This, of course, is not realistic politically, but it needs to be maintained as a standard if progress is to be made. Siegman’s formula for a breakthrough is more dubious:
“1. Changes to the pre-1967 situation can be made only by agreement between the parties. Unilateral measures will not receive international recognition.
2. The default setting of Resolution 242, reiterated by Resolution 338, the 1973 cease fire resolution, is a return by Israel’s occupying forces to the pre-1967 border.
3. If the parties do not reach agreement within 12 months (the implementation of agreements will obviously take longer), the default setting will be invoked by the Security Council. The Security Council will then adopt its own terms for an end to the conflict, and will arrange for an international force to enter the occupied territories to help establish the rule of law, assist Palestinians in building their institutions, assure Israel’s security by preventing cross-border violence, and monitor and oversee the implementation of terms for an end to the conflict.”
Points one and two should be obvious, and must be the basis for action for anyone who is actually interested in a peace that is realistic. Point three, however, is a lot more fanciful.
The issue is not to get the Security Council to accept the first two steps, since most of it does. The trick is to get the US to accept it, which is far more difficult. Points one and two should be obvious, and must be the basis for action for anyone who is actually interested in a peace that is realistic. Point three, however, is a lot more fanciful. If one and two were actually accomplished, step 3 would be unnecessary. The existence of suitable conditions for those first two steps would mean that reaching a resolution would be much easier than is conceivable now.
Moreover, we’re in this situation in part because of the inability of the international community to resolve this issue, from the days of the British Mandate, through the 1947 Partition Resolution, through 242 and 338 and right up to the present day. Advocating trying that course again is the definition of insanity, repeating the same action over and over in hope that the result will be different next time.
Consider for a moment what would happen if the Security Council tried to take control of the West Bank. UN troops have arguably the worst track record on the planet in any sort of combat situations. And they would be under fire from both Palestinians and Israel settlers. There is simply no way conceivable that they would be even close to as effective at preventing attacks on Israelis as Israel is and would, quite obviously, be unable to stop Israeli attacks on Palestinians. Moreover, this is not a matter of simple disengagement. Palestine cannot survive without Israel, while the reverse is not true. That’s one of the problems. The UNSC would not be able to do anything about Israel’s control of goods and services into the Territories. No, this is no solution, it’s a recipe for making matters worse.
I note this is different from a call for international protection. That’s a much more limited mandate than what Siegman is suggesting. That’s something we should and do support. No, what Siegman fails to recognize here is that the reason no solution is forced on Israel is that no solution CAN be forced on Israel.
In fact, he has the answer in his own article. the key point he makes there is that Israel is satisfied with no solution. The reason for that is that the political cost of the occupation is ridiculously low. The way that changes, primarily, is US and Israeli public opinion. The former is much more movable, which is why it is so strongly resisted by so-called “pro-Israel” types. But it is also the key to moving the latter.
Now, we know most Israelis want peace and are willing to give up all or most of the West Bank for it. All things being equal, Israeli leaders would take peace as well. The question is what are they willing to give up for it, and the answer, heretofore, has been not much. The preference for no solution is based on the super-low political cost of maintaining the occupation, particularly since the EU, US and even the UN all play their roles in helping Israel to do that. That’s also what we are most likely to be able to change. The imbalance of power is always going to be there. But the cheapness of this occupation for Israel does not have to remain eternal. No easy task, but it is possible to change that.
175 Responses to “Getting Past Blame: Present Realities and How To Move Forward”
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August 13th, 2007 at 6:55 am
Were Israel to give up the entirety of the West Bank, removing all the settlements including Gush Etzion, Ariel, Ma’ale Adumim, settlements in the Jordan Valley, etc., we would not achieve peace but war.
We can find all kinds of rationale for the rocket attacks on Sderot, the Negev farms and Ashkelon, including “unilateral” withdrawal, but the fact of the matter is, Israel will always be an occupier no matter what the physical dimensions of the land, no matter how truncated in size.
Jews are not welcome in the Muslim-dominated Middle East. Period. Not on an equal basis at any rate. Muslims insist that Jews have lived peaceably in the Middle East for centuries, but as despised, subjugated people. Ask any Sephardi Jew that lived under Muslim oppression.
Creating a Palestinian state in the mountains over-looking Israel’s coastal plain is committing strategic suicide for the Jews. It will mean the final Holocaust to end all Holocausts. Is this what we Jews want?
President Bush is no friend of the Jews. Bush would like nothing more than to see Israel wiped off the map. He’s doing his utmost to accomplish it. I mean no disrespect to the office, however Mr. Bush is Israel’s adversary. I do not trust the man. I don’t trust anything he says or does.
August 13th, 2007 at 8:17 am
“Ask any Sephardi Jew that lived under Muslim oppression.”
By all means ask, but you will find out that they experienced less discrimination and oppression than did Ashkenazim. On the other hand, they might give you an earful about their experiences in Israel itself.
The argument that “giving up” the WB and removing the settlements would lead to war is counter-intuitive and not accepted by the majority of Israelis.
“Israel will always be an occupier no matter what the physical dimensions of the land, no matter how truncated in size.”
To the few. The many however are offering “the establishment of normal relations in the context of a comprehensive peace with Israel” and “to live in peace and good neighborliness and provide future generations with security, stability, and prosperity” under support from the international community.
The most extreme on either side will never be completely satisfied with any peace agreement which does not give everything to their side. Nothing less than an equitable sharing of the land will ever work. For that to happen, the majority will have to bring the others on their side along, so that the perfect does not become the enemy of the good and their children and grandchildren can live in peace and security.
August 13th, 2007 at 9:43 am
John wrote: “The argument that “giving up” the WB and removing the settlements would lead to war is counter-intuitive and not accepted by the majority of Israelis.”>>>>>
Let’s talk about majorities John. Let’s talk about “the people.” The majority of the Isralites:
1Sa 8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah;
and they said to him…..Now appoint a king for us to judge us like all the nations.”
But the thing was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” And Samuel prayed to the LORD.
The LORD said to Samuel, “Listen to the voice of “the people” in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them.
More to the point John, virtually every religious Jew worth his or her salt cites the account of the spies; the failure of the majority of Israel to trust in God; to take possession of our God-given land. Instead, just as “the people” or Israel are today listening to wicked leaders in Israel and here in the US today like G. W. Bush, so the people of Israel listened to the wicked counsel of the spies in their day, and they wandered in the wilderness for forty years John. But why why should any non-Jew concern himself that, just like then, today the Jews are listening wicked counsel?
Why won’t “the people” listen to our Joshuas and out Calebs who tell them to hold on to our land that God gave over to us in these several wars of Arab aggression? Why won’t the people listen to the truth? Instead:
Num 14:1 Then all the congregation lifted up their voices and cried, and the people wept that night.
All the sons of Israel grumbled against Moses and Aaron; and the whole congregation said to them, “Would that we had died in the land of Egypt! Or would that we had died in this wilderness!
“Why is the LORD bringing us into this land, to fall by the sword? Our wives and our little ones will become plunder; would it not be better for us to return to Egypt?”
So they said to one another, “Let us appoint a leader and return to Egypt.”
Then Moses and Aaron fell on their faces in the presence of all the assembly of the congregation of the sons of Israel.
Joshua the son of Nun and Caleb the son of Jephunneh, of those who had spied out the land, tore their clothes;
and they spoke to all the congregation of the sons of Israel, saying, “The land which we passed through to spy out is an exceedingly good land.
“If the LORD is pleased with us, then He will bring us into this land and give it to us–a land which flows with milk and honey.
“Only do not rebel against the LORD; and do not fear the people of the land, for they will be our prey. Their protection has been removed from them, and the LORD is with us; do not fear them.”
But all the congregation said to stone them with stones. Then the glory of the LORD appeared in the tent of meeting to all the sons of Israel.
The LORD said to Moses, “How long will this people spurn Me? And how long will they not believe in Me, despite all the signs which I have performed in their midst? …..
Num 14:28 “Say to them, ‘As I live,’ says the LORD, ‘just as you have spoken in My hearing, so I will surely do to you;
your corpses will fall in this wilderness, even all your numbered men, according to your complete number from twenty years old and upward, who have grumbled against Me.
‘Surely you shall not come into the land in which I swore to settle you, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun.
‘Your children, however, whom you said would become a prey–I will bring them in, and they will know the land which you have rejected.
‘But as for you, your corpses will fall in this wilderness.
‘Your sons shall be shepherds for forty years in the wilderness, and they will suffer for your unfaithfulness, until your corpses lie in the wilderness.
‘According to the number of days which you spied out the land, forty days, for every day you shall bear your guilt a year, even forty years, and you will know My opposition.
‘I, the LORD, have spoken, surely this I will do to all this evil congregation who are gathered together against Me. In this wilderness they shall be destroyed, and there they will die.’ “
August 13th, 2007 at 10:10 am
In a democracy no one ever gets everything they want.
August 13th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
“The argument that “giving up” the WB and removing the settlements would lead to war is counter-intuitive and not accepted by the majority of Israelis.”
i can’t understand how you can say that when that is exactly what happened in gaza. israel left gaza and instead of peace they got more war. why would you think it would be any different in the WB?
““Israel will always be an occupier no matter what the physical dimensions of the land, no matter how truncated in size.”
To the few.”
if it was just a radical few with no power (like it is in israel), there wouldn’t be a problem. but the “few” who can’t abide any israel at all are the ones in power, the ones elected by the people.
August 13th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
There can be no peace with the settlements in place. Anyone knows that. Will it take more than simply dismantling settlements? Yes, anyone knows that, too. Peace will come when settlements are removed as part of a comprehensive agreement to end the occupation, establish borders, and deal with Jerusalem and the refugee situation.
August 13th, 2007 at 7:53 pm
The Lord John God sayd: “Peace will come when settlements are removed”
“Thus saith the lord John, the God of Israel….When Israel completely surrenders to her enemies, I the lord god John say, “PEACE WILL COME!”
August 13th, 2007 at 8:21 pm
If you are going to be my prophet you need to pay closer attention to my words. That’s not what I said. I said there can be no peace with the settlements in place. You think otherwise? How?
August 13th, 2007 at 10:32 pm
“the “few” who can’t abide any israel at all are the ones in power, the ones elected by the people.”
Should’ve negotiated with Arafat?
August 14th, 2007 at 6:46 am
(Good piece)
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1186557440550&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Aug. 13, 2007 23:32 | Updated Aug. 14, 2007 12:33
Analysis: Why the N. Ireland comparison doesn’t fit
By HERB KEINON
On the day that the British Parliament’s Foreign Affairs Committee called for a reassessment of Britain’s Mideast policy, including dialogue with Hamas and Hizbullah, the Labor Party chairman of the committee, Mike Gapes, once again drew comparisons between the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the troubles in Northern Ireland.
Saying that the lessons of Northern Ireland, where the Irish Republican Army moved away from terrorism and into political dialogue with Britain, should be applied to the Middle East, Gapes said: “I think from experience in Northern Ireland, you know that sometimes you have to engage with people in a diplomatic way, sometimes quietly.”
Ah, would that it were so. Would that Hamas would have proven itself to be a latter-day IRA. Indeed, were that true, Hamas would be willing to renounce violence and decommission its arms, as the IRA did.
The difference between the two situations is enormous….
Read the rest of this article at the link
August 14th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
i can’t understand how you can say that when that is exactly what happened in gaza. israel left gaza and instead of peace they got more war. why would you think it would be any different in the WB?
Actually, Mitchell does address this. If you’re interested, you can read his primer on the disengagement from Gaza.
August 14th, 2007 at 2:43 pm
“There can be no peace with the settlements in place.”
no peace with the settlements in place. there was no peace before the settlements. there was no peace after settlements have been removed. so what your saying is that the arabs will never allow peace. i’d hate to believe that, some have been saying that for years, now it seems you agree. pity.
“Should’ve negotiated with Arafat?”
of course israel did, and arafat refused to negotiate or live up to any agreements. that’s why his last days were so sad.
and peter, i have read that JVP tripe. it’s called the fallacy of perfection, look it up. just because things didn’t become perfect, JVP still wants to blame israel. yes the economy sucks in gaza. does JVP mention that it’s because the gazans destroyed working greenhouses and other businesses when israel left? or because they elected a terrorist group? israel made a huge, unilateral step toward peace and it was met with more violence. what would you have israel do? you (and the article) make no suggestions, you just continue to squander opportunities for peace and blame israel for everything.
August 14th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
there was no peace before the settlements. there was no peace after settlements have been removed.
There will be peace when there is peace. When that happens the settlements won’t be there. Put it that way.
You are talking settlements like they are spark plugs in a car that has run out of gas. Did the car run with the spark plugs in place? No. Did the car run when the spark plugs were removed? No. Therefore the car will never run again regardless whether the spark plugs are in or out? No, it needs gas (and spark plugs and a few other things).
August 14th, 2007 at 3:25 pm
Some how I wonder if spark plugs aren’t a fitting analogy for Israel’s jihadist killers.
Maybe the Jews need to have these spark plugs pulled and replaced with new living plugs; with better plugs in our land that will sprout and fill the land with fruit.
Pull all these old spark plugs. We need a tune-up and an overhaul in our land.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:28 pm
Real Voice of Peace, your claim that disengagement was a “huge, unilateral step toward peace” is contradicted by the statements of Ariel Sharon’s top adviser, Dov Weisglass, who said that the intention of disengagement was to put the peace process on “formaldehyde”. The point is not that Disengagement did not go far enough; it’s that it was done in a deliberate manner to thwart any possible peace process and undermine the Palestinian Authority.
About the Greenhouses in Gaza: Yes, some of them were vandalized after the settlers left, but the major reason they were not running was that settlers took the most valuable equipment after disengagement. In fact, the Palestinians have since spent millions of dollars restoring the Greenhouses. So the story about Palestinians destroying greenhouses, repeated endlessly on right-wing blogs to show what animals Palestinians are, is not true.
In any case, the cause of Gaza’s economic problems is that Israel has sealed it off from the rest of the world. The economic seige of Gaza got worse since Hamas’ election, but Gaza was already under Israeli domination before then. Actually, it was those brutal conditions that were partially responsible for Hamas’ election in the first place.
If you read this blog regularly, you should know that Mitchell does regularly offer potential solutions. Nor is it true that he solely blames Israel.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:44 pm
“There will be peace when there is peace. When that happens the settlements won’t be there. Put it that way.”
that’s really helpful. yes, you have captured the lazy, insincere attitude of arabs towards peace with israel. i only wish you and they thought it was more important than that.
“You are talking settlements like they are spark plugs in a car that has run out of gas. ”
you’re the one that keeps bringing up the settlements. if they are not the factor then what is? refugees? that’s a joke, unless you want to invite a million jewish refugees back into the arab lands, and you know that’s not going to happen. establish borders? israel is willing, the arabs are not. israel offered 98% of the west bank, with 2% more from israeli land, and the palestinians turned them down. jerusalem? arabs can have east jerusalem, that’s a compromise.
the answers are all there. it’s almost obvious at this point. israel just needs a partner in peace.
“it’s that it was done in a deliberate manner to thwart any possible peace process and undermine the Palestinian Authority.”
that’s nice spin, peter. palestinians complain for years about “occupation”, then when israel leaves, they say it was done in the wrong way. shall israel reoccupy gaza so they can leave like you want them too.
nothing is perfect. israel has taken steps, and palestinian supporters do nothing but complain that somehow it wasn’t perfect.
“About the Greenhouses in Gaza: Yes, some of them were vandalized after the settlers left, …so the story about Palestinians destroying greenhouses, repeated endlessly on right-wing blogs to show what animals Palestinians are, is not true.”
gee i wish you’d make up your mind. were they vandalized or not?
“In any case, the cause of Gaza’s economic problems is that Israel has sealed it off from the rest of the world. ”
shocking that you’re blaming israel.
the cause of gaza’s economic problem is corruption. fatah and hamas leaders live in mansions on the beach, arafat’s widow lives in paris with millions of palestinian dollars, millions given to them have been spent on weapons. take some freaking responsibility. the palestinians are like children, really. to israel’s detriment. i wish the palestinians would get a clue and get civilized.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:13 pm
shocking that you’re blaming israel.
Shocking only if you believe, as you do, that Israel is blameless. More of your all-or-none thinking.
The settlements are a major thorn-in-the-side of the Arabs, a major obstacle to peace. They are not the only problem, and just removing them while everything else remains the same is no solution. Can you not summon up enough empathy to put yourself in their shoes for five minutes? Apparently that’s asking too much. Yet if everyone does not completely empathize with Israel 24/7 you complain that “Israel is being blamed for everything.” Everything is black-and-white, all-or-nothing. Not realistic, Steve.
August 14th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
And you can spin it any way you want, Real Voice for Peace, the fact is. Gaza IS still occupied. The test of occupation is control, Israel is still in control of Gaza. Israel still controls Gaza’s airspace. All of Gaza’s connection to the outside world, whether by sea, land or air, are still controlled by Gaza.
But, like John Baker says, you’re of the Israel-can-do-no-wrong school, so it’s really no use arguing with you.
August 15th, 2007 at 5:42 am
“that’s really helpful. “
In case you have sincerely not understood, here’s what I mean. It is unrealistic to expect that simply removing settlements will be effective apart from a comprehensive agreement. Which is to say, there will be peace when there is (comprehensive) peace, when all the issues are settled. Removing settlements alone or any single aspect of the occupation will not bring a complete and lasting peace, so ýou can’t argue that removing settlements in Gaza proves it won’t work. It’s a fallacious argument, and its sophistry.
Will removing checkpoints alone bring peace? No. Will granting freedom of movement alone bring peace? No. Will ending curfews alone bring peace? No. Will equitable water rights alone bring peace? No. Will ending home demolitions alone bring peace? No. Will ending use of human shields alone bring peace? No. Will free access to fields and orchards alone bring peace? No. Will ending harassment by IDF and violence by settlers alone bring peace? No. Will one set of laws for both Palestinians and settlers alone bring peace? No. Will ending mass arrests alone bring peace? No. Will releasing the 10,000 Palestinians now in prison alone bring peace? No. Will removal of the separation wall alone bring peace? No. Will removing settlements alone bring peace? No. Why not? Because settlements are not the ONLY problem. No one of these issues is the ONLY issue.
August 15th, 2007 at 6:18 am
“In the four decades since the founding of the PLO, there has never been such a gulf between two parts of the [Palestinian] national movement.”
This is because during that time, the “PLO” was a schizophrenic and dual-faced movement, led by an insane mass serial murderer (Yasser Arafat) who made Charles Manson seem normal by comparison.
He would make speeches in English for the “Western” media, promoting peace and the very next day, be preaching martyrdom before 8-10 year old Arab school-children.
” . . . We will fight–fight–fight!!! We will never give up one inch of Arab land” [Translation: Israel].
During the Iran/Iraq war that cost 2-million souls (many as young as 13) I wrote a letter to ABC news in which I predicted that the day when the Palestinian-Arabs were sincere about wanting peace, the next day a civil war would break out between themselves. (I’m not sure a full day went by before this happened).
August 15th, 2007 at 6:36 am
Genesis of an Anti-Semitic State
By David Bedein
FrontPageMagazine.com | 8/15/2007
Imagine, if you would, that a nascent nation state, somewhere in the world, was in formation that had taken on these features:
* Its new constitution would not allow for any juridical status for Judaism.
Jews would not even be allowed to live in the country.
* Selling land to a Jew would be a capital crime.
* The new school system would inculcate children to make war on the Jews.
* Those who murdered Jews would become the national heroes of the new country.
* Their designated head of state earned his Ph.D. on the thesis that 6 million Jews were not really murdered during World War II, and that the Zionists were actually allies of the Nazis.
The reaction to such a news item would be an outcry from Jewish groups who monitor and react to anti-Semitism as a matter of policy. Yet, we have seen no outcry from these groups in the case of the proposed Palestinian state, even though it possesses all six qualities listed above…..
Read this piece:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=CA8C6EAE-CB7F-4BCF-B070-2AC80BDC8C48
August 15th, 2007 at 6:42 am
From this article:
Archbishop Sambi initiated a study of the new PA textbooks, which the Vatican determined to be anti-Semitic in nature. And so, at the recommendation of Archbishop Sambi, the Italian government pulled its money out of the Palestinian Ministry of Education’s textbook project.
This past May, Dr. Arnon Groiss, a researcher at the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace, made a presentation for European diplomats in Brussels showing how PA textbooks, instead of educating for peace with Israel, promote the violent struggle for liberation against Israel. From these textbooks, Groiss showed that the PA curriculum teaches the following fundamentals:
Jews are foreigners and have no rights in Palestine.
The Jews have a dubious and even murderous character.
Israel is an illegitimate usurper that occupied Palestine in 1948 and 1967.
Israel is the source of all kinds of evil done to the Palestinians.
Peace with Israel based on reconciliation is not to be sought.
A violent struggle for liberation is encouraged instead.
The exact area to be liberated is never restricted to the West Bank and Gaza alone.
Jihad and martyrdom are glorified, and terrorist activities against Israel are implicitly encouraged.
The West is imperialist, aspires to world hegemony, directs a cultural attack against Islam and supports Israel.
The list of accusations against Israel appearing in the new Palestinian Authority schoolbooks includes more than 25 items, including the following:
Israel contributes to Palestinian social ills and family violence.
Israel causes the increase of drug abuse cases in Palestinian society.
Israel pollutes the Palestinian environment.
Israel usurps Muslim and Christian holy places.
Israel strives to obliterate the Palestinian national identity and heritage.
August 15th, 2007 at 6:47 am
From this article:
This reporter asked spokespeople of the Israeli prime minister, foreign minister and defense minister if they would ask a new Palestinian state to cancel its anti-Semitic curriculum. The spokespeople for the Israeli government provided a clear answer: “This is not on the agenda.” The spokesman for Israel Prime Minister Ehud Olmert asked for the question in writing three weeks ago, confirmed that it was received and will not respond.
Questions were then posed to Jewish organizations who monitor anti-Semitism: the American Jewish Congress, the American Jewish Committee, Bnai Brith, the Anti Defamation League, the Religious Action Center of the UAHC, the World Jewish Congress, the Institute for Public Affairs of the OU and the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
Each group was asked if they would request that the American and Israeli governments condition aid to the Palestinian Authority on the nullification of the anti-Semitic constitution and curriculum of the Palestinian Authority.
The Simon Wiesenthal Center responded. Rabbi Abraham Cooper, Associate Director of the Wiesenthal Center, wrote: “You have raised an issue that was supposedly addressed during through the Oslo process and unfortunately no Israeli government or US administration held the Palestinian leadership accountable. The current questions you raised are important enough that we will urge that the Global Forum on Antisemitism take it up…”
Archbishop Sambi, now the Papal Nuncio in Washington, who has not been afraid to take a clear stand on the issue of official Palestinian anti-semitism, should be asked to join that forum. As for the other groups, they should break their silence on this critical issue.
August 15th, 2007 at 9:03 am
Sources like FrontPage love to print articles full of anti-Israeli war rhetoric (”anti-Semitism”) like this to prove that peace with Arabs/Muslims is impossible. No doubt some of it is anti-Semitic, but it is first and foremost war rhetoric, demonization of the enemy, just like American war rhetoric calling Japanese “Japs” and “yellow monkeys” during WW II. And it is the same on both sides.
I am struck by how many of those anti-Semitic attacks on Israel in the article would accurately characterize attacks that are routinely made on Arabs / Palestinians / Muslims by some on the Israeli side simply by switching the words around, mutatis mutandis:
Arabs are foreigners and have no rights in Eretz Israel. Arabs have a dubious and even murderous character. A Palestinians state on the land God gave us is illegitimate usurpation. Muslims are the source of all kinds of evil done to the Jews. Peace with Palestinians based on reconciliation is not to be sought. A violent campaign for liberation of the holy land is encouraged instead. The exact area to be liberated from the Arabs is not restricted to the West Bank and Gaza alone.
There is no equivalent to the term anti-Semitism when the smears and slurs and racial defamation are directed at Arabs. But it’s the same thing. I don’t need to ask you to put yourself in their shoes on this, because when you engage in this kind of attack you already have put yourself in their shoes and are showing that you would and do say exactly the same things they do.
August 15th, 2007 at 9:11 am
“Archbishop Sambi, now the Papal Nuncio in Washington, who has not been afraid to take a clear stand on the issue of official Palestinian anti-semitism, should be asked to join that forum. As for the other groups, they should break their silence on this critical issue. “
Now you can add the American Jewish Congress, the American Jewish Committee, Bnai Brith, the Anti Defamation League, the Religious Action Center of the UAHC, the World Jewish Congress to your list of people you are holding accountable, Steve. And also keep your eye on the Simon Wiesenthal Center in case they betray you by not following through on this.
I suspect that, war rhetoric aside, actual Palestinian policy cannot be based on such statements because they are unconstitutional and will be held as such. Meanwhile, the statements are just slogans. The stuff of bumper stickers. On both sides.
August 15th, 2007 at 9:49 am
“Arabs are foreigners and have no rights in Eretz Israel. Arabs have a dubious and even murderous character. A Palestinians state on the land God gave us is illegitimate usurpation. Muslims are the source of all kinds of evil done to the Jews. Peace with Palestinians based on reconciliation is not to be sought. A violent campaign for liberation of the holy land is encouraged instead. The exact area to be liberated from the Arabs is not restricted to the West Bank and Gaza alone.”
Nothing like this is taught to little Israeli children, right?
August 15th, 2007 at 10:51 am
Wait a minute John. Mr. Bedein writes, these principles are part of the constitution of the incipient Palestinian state. We are talkig about official govenment policy here; not what this or that Jew says about non-Jews.
Do you know of anything remotely resembling this in Israeli government law relating to non-Jews?
That Israel’s constitution would not allow for any juridical status for the religion of Islam or Christianity. (?)
Non-Jews would not even be allowed to live in the country.(?)
Selling land to a non-Jew would be a capital crime.(?)
Israel’s school system would inculcate children to make war on the non-Jews. (?)
Those who murdered no-Jews would become the national heroes of the new country. (?)
Mahmoud Abbas is a certified Holocaust revisionist. He wrote his doctoral thesis on the Holocaust.
“Following the war,” Abbas wrote: “word was spread that six million Jews were amongst the victims and that a war of extermination was aimed primarily at the Jews…The truth is that no one can either confirm or deny this figure. In other words, it is possible that the number of Jewish victims reached six million, but at the same time it is possible that the figure is much smaller — below one million.”
Abbas denies that the gas chambers were used to murder Jews, quoting a “scientific study” to that effect by French Holocaust-denier Robert Faurisson.
Abbas: “The historian and author Raoul Hilberg thinks that the figure does not exceed 890,000.”
Hilberg, historian and author of the study “The Destruction of the European Jews,” has never said or written this.
Abbas Jewish conspiracy: “It seems that the interest of the Zionist movement…is to inflate this figure so that their gains will be greater,” he writes. “This led them to emphasize this figure in order to gain the solidarity of international public opinion with Zionism. Many scholars have debated the figure of six million and reached stunning conclusions — fixing the number of Jewish victims at only a few hundred thousand.”
Abbas claimed that no serious scholar proposes such a figure.
Abbas appears to blame the Jews: “A partnership was established between Hitler’s Nazis and the leadership of the Zionist movement…[the Zionists gave] permission to every racist in the world, led by Hitler and the Nazis, to treat Jews as they wish, so long as it guarantees immigration to Palestine.”
Abbas claims Jews wanted more Jewish victims because, “having more victims meant greater rights and stronger privilege to join the negotiation table for dividing the spoils of war once it was over. However, since Zionism was not a fighting partner — suffering victims in a battle — it had no escape but to offer up human beings, under any name, to raise the number of victims, which they could then boast of at the moment of accounting.”
August 15th, 2007 at 11:07 am
John, I’m sure you know, I do not support a Palestinian state in the Holy Land under any circumstances but people like you who do, must deal these inconsistencies it seems to me.
If you believe a Palestinian state will exist beside a Jewish state in peace and security, how do you justify this official government policy on the part of this proposed Muslim-Arab state?
August 15th, 2007 at 11:09 am
Correction:
Those who murdered no-Jews would become the national heroes of the state of Israel. (?)
August 15th, 2007 at 11:44 am
“Wait a minute John. Mr. Bedein writes, these principles are part of the constitution of the incipient Palestinian state. We are talkig about official govenment policy here; not what this or that Jew says about non-Jews.”
No, he doesn’t. As so often, you are misrepresenting and exaggerating what was actually said. The only thing Bedein said relative to the proposed constitution was this:
“the new Palestinian Authority’s approved state constitution, funded by USAID, provided no juridical status for any religion other than Islam in the emerging Palestinian Arab entity.”
Everything else in the article, all the nasty bits which are characterized as anti-Semitic, relate to the school curriculum. We can be sure that those statements themselves have been exaggerated too, but at a minimum it should be said that they are not in the constitution.
So what the uproar is about is that the constitution is based on Sharia law and gives no official status for any religion other than Islam. In other words, they are proposing to make it an Islamic state. Now, Israel is a secular state although it is by definition in its constitution also “a Jewish state.” Some, Steve Klein included, would like to make it even moreso. In that case, you would be making Israel a Jewish state in exactly the same sense that Palestine would be an Islamic state. So, it’s fine if you do it, but it’s cause for alarm if the other guy does it?
I don’t really see what the big deal is. Jews have lived in Islamic states under Sharia law for centuries. There was no genocide. Jews sought refuge in Islamic countries when expelled by European countries, which were Roman Catholic btw. When the Jews were expelled from Spain in 1492, the Ottoman Sultan invited them to come live in the Ottoman Empire. Palestine was Ottoman when the Zionists first landed on the shores of Haifa. Islamic states have been havens for Jews. You just don’t want one living next to you now.
August 15th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
Everything else in the article, all the nasty bits which are characterized as anti-Semitic, relate to the school curriculum. We can be sure that those statements themselves have been exaggerated too, but at a minimum it should be said that they are not in the constitution.>>>>>
Who approves school curriculum for heaven sakes? The PA and you know it. Reports about Jew-hatred in the PA controlled curriculum are wide-spread and cannot be dismissed as you well know.
Again, I ask you to show me anything remotely similar in Israel’s government-approved text books. You can’t because it does not exist.
You know Israel’s government has bent over backwards to inculcate reconciliation amongst Israel’s school children.
I’m sure you are aware — and it is causing an outcry in many circles — Arab schoolchildren in Israel might or probably will be “taught next year that the founding of the State of Israel was a tragedy (Nakba in Arabic) in accordance with a widespread Arab view of the event.”
“The Education Ministry, headed by Prof.Yuli Tamir (Labor), has approved adding the Arab version to the curriculum in response to calls by Arab nationalists who requested the “Nakba” version be taught in their schools.”
This is an outrage John.
August 15th, 2007 at 12:55 pm
Some, Steve Klein included, would like to make it even moreso. In that case, you would be making Israel a Jewish state in exactly the same sense that Palestine would be an Islamic state. So, it’s fine if you do it, but it’s cause for alarm if the other guy does it?>>>>>
This is true but unlike Islam, Judaism does not call Muslims the “sons of apes and pigs.”
In virtually every state where Islam is the official religion of the state — such as Saudi Arabia and Gaza — Jews and Christians are persecuted and / or prohibited, not because of evil or wicked behavior but only because they are Jews and Christians.
August 15th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
I don’t really see what the big deal is. Jews have lived in Islamic states under Sharia law for centuries.>>>>
Jews and Christians have historically only been allowed to live in Islamic states, not as equal citizens with equal rights, but as subjugated inferiors.
August 15th, 2007 at 1:09 pm
just for the record, i don’t think israel is blameless, there is a lot they could have done better.
israel is a free and open society. there are always commissions going on, evaluating what is being done, criticizing israeli actions when appropriate.
on the other hand, several of you DO continue to blame israel and only israel for what is happening in gaza and the west bank. and hamas of course never investigates terrorism done in its name, if anything it celebrates it, whereas in israel terrorists are tried and sent to jail.
it’s not even close.
i’ve admitted israeli wrong doing. anyone want to admit that fatah and hamas corruption is a big cause of the economic problems in gaza and the WB? go ahead, i dare you. admit that arafat stole billions, that fatah leaders live in mansions, that they spend international aid money on weapons.
john, you seem to be saying that removing the settlements is meaningless without a comprehensive agreement. israel has felt the same for years. the palestinians have been wholly unwilling to agree to anything that allows israel to exist. do you think the settlements should stay until fatah and hamas recognize israel’s right to exist?
you guys following the news about the hamas children’s show? little girls being told to be martyrs? i would like to hear your justification for that nonsense. get creative.
August 15th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
you guys following the news about the hamas children’s show? little girls being told to be martyrs>>>>>
Don’t you know, the peace camp justifies this because of the occupation? Once the occupation of Tel Aviv, Beersheba, Ashkelon, Jerusalem, Hafai, Netanya, etc., ends, Arab children will be taught to love the Jews?
August 15th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
This is an outrage John.
I think it’s commendable. And I am not saying all Israeli children are taught that the Arabs are the enemy, but I am sure some are, particularly the children of settlers who live in the occupied territories.
August 15th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
Jews and Christians have historically only been allowed to live in Islamic states, not as equal citizens with equal rights, but as subjugated inferiors.
Was it the previous thread we were talking about treatment of Arabs living in Israel, how they don’t have equal rights and are the victims of preferential treatment by the state?
August 15th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
rvfp said,
“israel is a free and open society. there are always commissions going on, evaluating what is being done, criticizing israeli actions when appropriate. on the other hand, several of you DO continue to blame israel and only israel for what is happening in gaza and the west bank. and hamas of course never investigates terrorism done in its name, if anything it celebrates it, whereas in israel terrorists are tried and sent to jail. it’s not even close.”
I would agree. I have no knowledge of their investigations of terrorism done in their name, although considering that it hasn’t stopped one would have to conclude they “haven’t gotten to the bottom of it yet.” But anyway, yes, Israel is a far more open and democratic society. On the other hand, the occupied / disputed territories are…occupied zones living with some local control under foreign military governance. There is not yet a Palestinian state to compare with.
August 15th, 2007 at 5:28 pm
you guys following the news about the hamas children’s show? little girls being told to be martyrs
When I was a kid growing up during WW II, Hollywood did a great job of cranking out war movies targeting young audiences. These movies upheld self-martyrdom as an ideal for us, the Marine bleeding to death behind his red hot machine 50 cal. machine gun as he smoked about fifty more “Japs” before “buying the farm.” We grew up thinking this was what we were supposed to do, die for our country. You have no idea what a relief it was when George C. Scott as Gen. George Patton addressed the troops and the audience and said that, “No, the idea is to get the other poor sonofabitch to die for his country.”
August 16th, 2007 at 8:07 am
“War of Independence or Nakba?”
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/archive/1185383636
August 16th, 2007 at 9:46 am
John, I was thinking yesterday. What would possess Jews to take such an self-incriminating, defensive, supplicating, etc. stance with our enemies toward the Jewish state. For me as Jew, I am proud of Israel; I am not ashamed. As I read Norman Finkelstein’s book I see such self-loathing and self-hatred, embarrassment, what have you, toward his own people. God named this professor well. The following are synonyms for a fink:
backstabber, betrayer, Brutus, defector, deserter, double-crosser, fink, informer, Judas, quisling, snake in the grass, snitch, spy, stool pigeon, treasonist, turncoat
Now as to some of the points made by these (I can only conclude) supplicating Jewish members of Gush Shalom that are beseeching our enemy’s forgiveness and understanding:
“The State of Israel is strong enough to look honestly at past events.”
Jews don’t owe anyone any apologies for about not being strong enough to admit our mistakes. Have you ever read the Jewish prophets? It’s all right there. All our disobedience and wickedness that the Christian church used over the centuries to justify their murders and persecutions. We Jews do not need to be told we are strong enough to admit our faults. Jews are some of the most introspective, self-critical people on the face of the earth.
“Both sides practiced ethnic cleansing as an integral part of the fighting. Almost no Arabs remained in the territories captured by the Jews and no Jews at all remained in territories captured by the Arabs.”
There are over one million Arabs living in Israel inside the green line and millions of Arabs are living in Judea, Samaria, Gaza, and east Jerusalem. When Jordan illegally occupied the West Bank, all the Jews were expelled, cemeteries desecrated and synagogues destroyed. Notice the writer says “almost” no Arabs remained. This is a fabrication. No Jews at all remained is a fact.
“The myth of “the few against the many” was created on the Jewish side to describe the stand of the Jewish community of 650,000 against the entire Arab world of over a hundred million. The Jewish community lost 1% of its people in the war. The Arab side saw an entirely different picture: A fragmented Arab population with no national leadership to speak of, with no unified command over its meager forces, poorly equipped with mostly obsolete weapons….”
IT’S NOT A MYTH. Because the Arabs fought amongst themselves and did not coordinate their strategy properly has nothing to do with the numbers. There were only about 600,000 Jews living in Israel, many of them Holocaust survivors who were incapable of fighting.
No question, the Arabs were better armed with more sophisticated weapons, tanks, artillery, etc. In December 1947 US suspended all arms shipments to Middle East in line with a UN arms embargo, but Great Britain had been selling arms to Transjordan, Egypt and Iraq for some time and continued to re-supply the Arabs and help them with military preparedness. The British armed and trained the Arab states, notably Transjordan, Egypt and Iraq. British Foreign Secretary Earnest Bevin vehemently opposed the creation of a Jewish state. The Arab Legion’s British commander was Glubb Pasha. It took the Jews many months to acquire enough rifles whereby most of the soldiers even had a rifle.
“According to the United Nations plan, the Jewish State was supposed to receive 55% of Palestine, in which the Arabs would constitute almost half of the population”
This is true. Have you looked at the map? The vast majority of the Jewish state was the Negev desert.
“No less important than the expulsion itself is the fact that the refugees were not allowed to return to their homes when the fighting was over, as is usual after a conventional war.”
I don’t know that this is historically true. I strongly doubt it. Interestingly enough, I was just reading an article related this morning which touches on population transfers, mostly as a consequence of the second world war. In part:
“Given the size of the Israeli state that emerged, smaller than New Jersey, the Palestinian refugees from that war only had to relocate a few miles away from their previous homes, into Arab states in which they spoke the language and enjoyed a common culture, Arab states who together controlled a land mass nearly twice the size of the United States (including Alaska).
These Arab refugees were but a tiny drop in the sea of population relocations that occurred all over the world in the late 1940s, amounting to tens of millions of humans, ranging from the huge population relocations in the Indian subcontinent, to the repatriation of millions of ethnic Germans from countries in which they had lived for a thousand years “back” to Germany, to the mass expulsion of Japanese from mainland Asia. In every other case of refugee populations, the refugees were quickly resettled, rehabilitated, and absorbed, usually inside countries of their ethnic kinsmen, within a short period. The Arab world, awash in petrodollars, preferred to keep as many “refugees” on display as possible inside “refugee camps” funded by the United Nations and many gullible others.”
August 16th, 2007 at 11:14 am
“God named this professor well. The following are synonyms for a fink.”
No doubt the name was not given to this Jewish family by God but by German census-takers in the distant past. When last names were assigned, Jews who were too poor to afford a bribe were given “unfortunate” names. “Finkelstein” probably means something like sparkly-stone or even rhinestone in German, which would be a terrible name if you happen to be in the jewelry business. So, in other words, you are making a joke at a poor Jew’s expense on the same level as the German census-takers. Good grief, Steve.
August 16th, 2007 at 11:18 am
“self-incriminating, defensive, supplicating, etc. stance with our enemies”
Enemies? We are talking about a curriculum for children in Israel, Steve. As to “stance,” I believe the only stance involved here is that relative to the truth, the whole truth, and the desire and responsibility of educators to present that to the children. You are afraid for them to know the truth?
August 16th, 2007 at 7:18 pm
“the Palestinian refugees from that war only had to relocate a few miles away from their previous homes, into Arab states in which they spoke the language and enjoyed a common culture”
And do they show any gratitude for such consideration? Not a word. And those 450 Arab villages Israel wiped from the face of the earth? I’m sure the land needed cleansing. Yes, Steve, Israel is without blame.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_and_Property_laws_in_Israel
August 16th, 2007 at 7:21 pm
list of villages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_depopulated_during_the_1948_Arab-Israeli_war
August 17th, 2007 at 7:36 am
I don’t understand you John. This is nothing new. You need to study your American history of expansionism throughout a land wherein you now reside. What state do you live in by the way?
Do a little study like I am doing about American imperial conquest and displacement of native peoples. Then get back to me.
Had the Arabs accepted the 1947 United Nations General Assembly partition plan (181), they would have had a state of their own but they didn’t, instead choosing war John; 1948, 1967, 1973. If I were prime minister, I probably would have expelled all the Arab enemies from our land. The fact that prime ministers didn’t expel them all, showed weakness.
Israel has a hell of a lot better case and title to our land than you or I do to your / my property John. Get off it. As they say, get a life.
Do a little research; a little reading about what Thomas Jefferson, James Monroe, Andrew Jackson, Martin Van Buren, James Knox Polk, Theodore Roosevelt etc., did during their careers, then get back to me.
August 17th, 2007 at 8:41 am
“Do a little study like I am doing about American imperial conquest and displacement of native peoples. Then get back to me…Do a little research; a little reading about what Thomas Jefferson, James Monroe, Andrew Jackson, Martin Van Buren, James Knox Polk, Theodore Roosevelt etc., did during their careers, then get back to me.”
Your entire argument is fallacious and a cheap dodge. Get off your high horse and stop playing your blame game. This is not the 18th or 19th century. The injustices and oppression and human rights abuses are current, on-going, August 2007.
The suffering is desperate. The situation is deadly. The IDF prevents women and children from getting emergency medical care in Gaza and West Bank on a daily basis. Ten thousand Palestinians are currently in IDF prisons and being tortured. The IDF kills Palestinians including women and minor children in the West Bank and Gaza every day:
” From the beginning of the current intifada (29 September 2000) to 14 February 2007, the Military Police investigated only 239 cases involving shooting by soldiers. Only 30 of these investigations resulted in the filing of indictments. During this period, 3,963 Palestinians were killed, among them 814 minors (under the age of 18). Some of those killed were indeed killed while fighting against Israeli soldiers or civilians, however hundreds of others were not involved in the fighting.”
http://www.btselem.org/English/Firearms/Jag_Investigations.asp
This is not the time to be talking about the 18th and 19th centuries or really even 1948, Steve. Trying to hold dead American presidents morally accountable while turning a blind eye to the current situation in the West Bank and Gaza is to dodge our own moral accountability. This is not about blame, whether blaming Israel or blaming the Palestinians. This is about taking responsibility to put a stop to the killing of innocent people. The Palestinians must put a stop to terrorist violence. And Israelis must put a stop to IDF and settler violence. Everyone across the board must do what they can do. Violence is violence. Violence is not pleasing to God, whether you call him Allah or Hashem.
AUGUST 18, 2007
http://www.btselem.org/english/Testimonies/20070807_Heart_patient_dies_after_medical_delay_at_Bartaa_witness_Saed_al_Atrash.asp
August 17th, 2007 at 9:06 am
“Do a little study like I am doing…”
It sounds like you are doing a lot of reading to confirm your own basic world view, that everyone, every people and nation throughout history, has sinned and is to be held accountable (by Steve Klein)…except for (surprise!) Israel, which is completely without sin.
Holding the whole world - past and present - accountable while holding your own favorite country blameless (your word) is an attempt to evade one’s own moral accountability. I agree it’s wrong to blame Israel for everything. But it is equally wrong and morally-perilous to blame the whole world excluding Israel for everything.
August 17th, 2007 at 9:16 am
John wrote: “Your entire argument is fallacious and a cheap dodge. Get off your high horse and stop playing your blame game. This is not the 18th or 19th century. The injustices and oppression and human rights abuses are current, on-going, August 2007.”
There is no oppression and human rights abuses except by the Palestinians and their jihadist warriors. We are at war John. Israel is surrounded by vicious enemies who are determined to destroy her, no different from the Nazis in the late nineteen thirties and early forties. No one talked about the allies oppressing the German people then and if they did they were on the fringes which is where I place you John; on the extremist political fringe. Your condemnations are meaningless. To me you are little more than a fringe lunatic. Sorry John. This is where you are on the political scale.
August 17th, 2007 at 9:21 am
“It sounds like you are doing a lot of reading to confirm your own basic world view, that everyone, every people and nation throughout history, has sinned and is to be held accountable (by Steve Klein)…except for (surprise!) Israel, which is completely without sin.”
I am not saying whether Amemerica sinned or did not sin. I will leave this judgment to the Almighty.
What I am saying, is that America and Americans have no right to lecture or judge Israel who is defending herself from Islamic jihadism. ZERO right. That’s all.
And as America and Americans proceed down this self-righteous, hypocritical path, what sin America did commit in the past is compounded and multiplied in God’s eyes. Of this I am fairly certain John.
August 17th, 2007 at 9:35 am
“What I am saying, is that America and Americans have no right to lecture or judge Israel who is defending herself from Islamic jihadism.”
America and Americans are not lecturing or judging or blaming Israel. So you can stop blaming America.
Title of thread:
“Getting Past Blame: Present Realities and How To Move Forward”
Stop the violence. What part of that do you not understand?
August 17th, 2007 at 9:43 am
“There is no oppression and human rights abuses except by the Palestinians and their jihadist warriors. We are at war John. Israel is surrounded by vicious enemies who are determined to destroy her, no different from the Nazis in the late nineteen thirties and early forties.”
You think everyone (other than you) is either a Jew-hating Nazi, including the International Red Cross, or a self-loathing Jewish traitor, including Rabbi Abraham Heschel, Ariel Sharon, and the ADL!
“…on the fringes which is where I place you John; on the extremist political fringe. Your condemnations are meaningless. To me you are little more than a fringe lunatic. Sorry John. This is where you are on the political scale.”
Likewise. I’ve had enough of your lashon hara.
August 17th, 2007 at 9:50 am
John wrote: “Holding the whole world - past and present - accountable while holding your own favorite country blameless (your word) is an attempt to evade one’s own moral accountability. I agree it’s wrong to blame Israel for everything. But it is equally wrong and morally-perilous to blame the whole world excluding Israel for everything.”
“He has not observed misfortune in Jacob; Nor has He seen trouble in Israel; The LORD his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them.”
John,
Remember, these prophet’s words were not spoken by a Jew but by a non-Jew like yourself; a non-Jewish prophet:
Num 23:8 “How shall I curse whom God has not cursed? And how can I denounce whom the LORD has not denounced?
“As I see him from the top of the rocks, And I look at him from the hills; Behold, a people who dwells apart, And will not be reckoned among the nations.
“Who can count the dust of Jacob, Or number the fourth part of Israel? Let me die the death of the upright, And let my end be like his!”
Num 23:19 “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
“Behold, I have received a command to bless; When He has blessed, then I cannot revoke it.
“He has not observed misfortune in Jacob; Nor has He seen trouble in Israel; The LORD his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them.
“God brings them out of Egypt, He is for them like the horns of the wild ox.
“For there is no omen against Jacob, Nor is there any divination against Israel; At the proper time it shall be said to Jacob And to Israel, what God has done!
“Behold, a people rises like a lioness, And as a lion it lifts itself; It will not lie down until it devours the prey, And drinks the blood of the slain.”
August 17th, 2007 at 9:52 am
“…on the fringes which is where I place you John; on the extremist political fringe. Your condemnations are meaningless. To me you are little more than a fringe lunatic. Sorry John. This is where you are on the political scale.”
Likewise. I’ve had enough of your lashon hara.>>>>
I’m halfway sort of pulling your chain John. Well….sort of.
August 17th, 2007 at 10:02 am
You think everyone (other than you) is either a Jew-hating Nazi, including the International Red Cross, or a self-loathing Jewish traitor, including Rabbi Abraham Heschel, Ariel Sharon, and the ADL!>>>>>
I don’t know about Heschel yet. I’ve not gotten around to studying him. Would he, like Abe Foxman and Ariel Sharon, favor expelling Jews from the Holy Land? I don’t call Foxman or Sharon Nazis. They are men who have callously betrayed their own people. Foxman would never (I pray) enter my counsel. He’s fine on Mel Gibson, the Pope and anti-Semitism. Beyond that, I do not trust him.
Ariel Sharon was a very talented general and a skillful military strategist — even his bitter enemies acknowledged this — but as a politician, he proved to be a disaster. Some men are superb on the physical battlefield and failures in the political battlefield.
I spent eight years in local Republican party politics and was up against some strong pressure including pressure from my own late father, former chairman, former state committeeman, who opposed what I was trying to accomplish on the Committee. It was not easy to go against my own flesh and blood to whom I owe everything.
However, I’ve not been up against the kind of political pressure Sharon was up against; strong international and U.S. pressure from the Bush White House.
I would like to believe with faith in God I might fare better. I don’t know for certain.
August 17th, 2007 at 10:05 am
Sorry, I’m not. I believe you have locked yourself up in an imaginary ghetto of which you are the sole inhabitant and from which you hate everything outside and hold everyone outside accountable. I sincerely hope you will find someone who will help you walk out before it’s too late.
August 17th, 2007 at 10:18 am
“I don’t know about Heschel yet. I’ve not gotten around to studying him.”
Oh you wrote him off a while back (without getting around to studying him) solely on the basis that all of his rabbinical training was in Germany by “German Jews, whom you described as the kind of Jews who kept silent while the Nazis were gassing Jews. Your prejudices have completely taken over, Steve.
August 17th, 2007 at 10:19 am
I don’t hate everything. I don’t hate anything or anyone. I don’t even hate you.
I am a realist. I have my eyes wide open. No offense intended John, you are the sort of man who would have gone along with England and France negotiating with Herr Hitler hoping he might be reasonable and not start a war.
Conservatives, well some of us, have an appreciation and a love of history. When Netanyahu says we are in the late nineteen thirties (in many ways) yet again, I believe he is right. When Ahmadinejad says Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth, I take him at his word.
I was watching an interview on Youtube, Glen Beck did with the former prime minister, this morning http://www.terrorismawareness.org/videos/32/glenn-beck-series-on-islam/ (see part III).
Netanyahu told Beck he once asked a Holocaust survivor what important lesson he learned from the genocide. The survivor told him when a leader like Hitler says he is going to do this or do that, he takes him at his word.
I take the jihadists like the Iranian prime minster at his word.
Like Neville Chamberlain and Edouard Daladier, you do not take them or him at his word.
August 17th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
http://www.terrorismawareness.org/know-about-jihad/
August 17th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
John:
http://www.terrorismawareness.org/know-about-jihad/
August 17th, 2007 at 1:20 pm
“I am a realist. I have my eyes wide open. No offense intended John, you are the sort of man who would have gone along with England and France negotiating with Herr Hitler hoping he might be reasonable and not start a war.”
You are perhaps the most unrealistic person I’ve ever encountered. Here’s yet another example of your all-or-none thinking. Anyone who does not agree with you by definition belongs to one of the following stereotypes. He is either:
1) a Jew-hating Nazi
or
2) a traitor / an appeaser
You have put me in category 2 along with Ariel Sharon and Neville Chamberlain and Edouard Daladier and Abe Foxman and possibly your own father. The fact that you have put these people in the same category should tell you that you’ve made a serious error. You have in my case, I assure you.
In your book everyone is “the sort of man who…” You are dealing across the board with types and stereotypes; not individuals.
You’ve painted yourself into a corner, Steve. Get some advice from someone you trust.
August 17th, 2007 at 6:18 pm
You’ve painted yourself into a corner, Steve. Get some advice from someone you trust.>>>>
Get some advice from someone I can trust? The problem is I don’t know anyone, other than the Almighty, that I can wholly trust. Do you? With the Almighty it sometimes takes time and patience to receive an answer.
I’ve gotten advice from all sorts of people over the years. What good is advice if it is bad advice?
I didn’t say my own father was a traitor. It’s just that as I got older my father and I did not always see eye to eye on politics. My father was a very wise man. People came from miles around to seek out the great sage’s advice. Dad gave me much wise counsel over the years.
I think to disagree with a parent as we mature is normal and healthy for any son, isn’t it?
August 17th, 2007 at 6:51 pm
A rabbi perhaps.
August 17th, 2007 at 7:13 pm
Right. A rabbi perhaps that preaches expelling Jews from the holy land or worse, is silent. Most of them are on the government payroll. A rabbi perhaps.
August 17th, 2007 at 8:26 pm
# 36:
“I think it’s commendable. And I am not saying all Israeli children are taught that the Arabs are the enemy, but I am sure some are, particularly the children of settlers who live in the occupied territories.”
In point-of-fact, many of the residents of Jewish neighborhoods nestled within Arab majorities are there purely on religious missions. Not to demonize or ‘evict’ the Arabs but to perform their role as “a light upon the world”.
August 17th, 2007 at 8:32 pm
#39:
” . . . We grew up thinking this was what we were supposed to do, die for our country.”
And herein lies the DNA-helix of John Baker’s positions. Being easily brainwashed himself, John can’t quite tune into stark reality and can only dance from one form of propaganda to another.
August 17th, 2007 at 8:34 pm
Be sure to watch “Warriors of God.” Three part special about Jewish, Christian, and Muslim fundamentalists on CNN with Christiane Amanpour. I don’t care who they are, if they think God is on their side and loves violence, they’ve already made two mistakes.
August 18th, 2007 at 6:41 am
http://www.hvc-inc.com/clients/cnn/warriors/for.html#pr
Politically correct documentary.
August 18th, 2007 at 7:41 am
I don’t know anyone, other than the Almighty, that I can wholly trust.
Doesn’t have to be wholly. More all-or-nothing thinking there. Start with partly. Someone can earn your trust. Unless you are practicing a one-man religion, a rabbi perhaps, a good listener, because your issues are religious in nature. “When the pupil is ready, the teacher will come.”
August 18th, 2007 at 11:05 am
My late father used to mock me, and I am paraphrasing. Dad used to say, we have Reform and Conservative Judaism, Orthodox and now we have “Stevodox.”
That’s great! Isn’t it?
August 18th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
Cute!
August 18th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
JPost.com
Aug. 16, 2007 15:25 | Updated Aug. 18, 2007 18:05
Guest Columnist: Ethnic cleansing in Palestine?
By SETH FRANTZMAN
As negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority aimed at creating a Palestinian state willing to live side-by-side with Israel in peace resume, one of the major sticking points continues to be the Arab refugee issue. Bitter arguments among politicians and scholars continue to surround the creation of the refugee problem during Israel’s War of Independence in 1948.
It has become fashionable in recent decades to frame the 1948 war as one in which the Arabs were victims of Zionist aggression. Anti-Zionist scholars such as Noam Chomsky, Rashid Khalidi and Ilan Pappe have presented the war as if the only important events were Deir Yassin and the flight or expulsion of Arabs from Haifa, Acre, Tiberias, west Jerusalem, Jaffa and numerous villages.
IN THIS context, Ilan Pappe’s work deserves special attention. He was born to a German Jewish family in Haifa in 1954. The former senior lecturer in the University of Haifa’s Department of Political Science recently announced he was moving to the UK because it had become “increasingly difficult to live in Israel” with his “unwelcome views and convictions.”
These views are those of the “new historians” - leftist scholars who in the 1980s began to reinterpret Israeli and Palestinian history. He is the author of six works on the history of the Israeli-Arab conflict and the Middle East. In his recently released book The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, Pappe claims that Israel prepared a special plan for the ethnic cleansing of Palestine’s Arab population known as Plan D for dalet. Pappe’s “evidence” is derived from his interpretations of files found in the Hagana and Israel state archives…..
Read this article:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=1&cid=1186557466176&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
August 18th, 2007 at 5:18 pm
Thanks for the article, Steve. I am glad to see he deals with facts. I notice that what he says about the facts, however, is exactly the same as the statements in the new curriculum mentioned above (post #40) that you got so upset about:
33- The war initiated by the Arabs after the partition plan was,inevitably, an “ethnic” war; a war in which each side seeks to conquer as much land as possible and evict the population of the other side. Such a campaign (which later came to be known as “ethnic cleansing”) always involves expulsions and atrocities.
34- The war of 1948 was a direct continuation of the Zionist-Arab conflict, and each side sought to fulfill its historical aims. The Jews wanted to establish a homogenous national State that would be as large as possible. The Arabs wanted to eradicate the Zionist Jewish entity that had been established in Palestine.
35- Both sides practiced ethnic cleansing as an integral part of the fighting. Almost no Arabs remained in the territories captured by the Jews and no Jews at all remained in territories captured by the Arabs. However, as the territories captured by the Jews were very large while the Arabs managed to conquer only small areas (such as the Etzion Bloc, the Jewish Quarter in the Old City of Jerusalem), the result was one-sided. (The ideas of “population exchange” and “transfer” were raised in Zionist organizations as early as the 1930’s. Effectively this meant the expulsion of the Arab population from the country. On the other side, many among the Arabs believed that the Zionists should go back to wherever they came from.).
36- The myth of “the few against the many” was createdon the Jewish side to describe the stand of the Jewish community of 650,000 against the entire Arab world of over a hundred million. The Jewish community lost 1% of its people in the war. The Arab side saw an entirely different picture: A fragmented Arab population with no national leadership to speak of, with no unified command over its meager forces,poorly equipped with mostly obsolete weapons, facing an extremely well organized Jewish community that was highly trained in the use of the weapons that were flowing to it (especially from the Soviet bloc.) The neighboring Arab countries betrayed the Palestinians and, when they finally did send their armies into Palestine, they mainly operated in competition with each other, with no coordination and no common plan. From the social and military points of view, the fighting capabilities of the Israeli side were far superior to those of the Arab states, which had hardly emerged from the colonial era.
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/downloads/truth/Truth_Eng.pdf
Why are you so afraid of the new curriculum and of the truth? Aren’t we supposed to teach the children what happened, the whole story of what happened and not just the perspective of one side? We certainly are striving to do a better job of that in America regarding our own history. I don’t understand what you are afraid of.
August 18th, 2007 at 7:10 pm
OK John, let’s go over some of this again. Please address my point even if I am wrong, please address them:
“The Jews were allotted 55% of the land, including the unpopulated Negev desert.
(the unpopulated Negev desert was the lion’s share of the allotment.)
Israel’s Declaration of Independence did not define the state’s borders and Israel has not defined its borders to this day.
(So? Why should we have defined our borders? This is an asinine observation. Isn’t it?)
32- The Arab world did not accept the partition plan and regarded it as a vile attempt by the United Nations, which at the time was essentially a club of Western and Communist nations, to divide a country that did not belong to it.
(The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion and Mein Kampf are two of the best sellers in the Arab world. The Arab world is full of conspiracy theories to this day!)
35- Both sides practiced ethnic cleansing as an integral part of the fighting. Almost no Arabs remained in the territories captured by the Jews and no Jews at all remained in territories captured by the Arabs…
(”Almost no Arabs remained” is absurd and stupid. This is an outright lie!)
36- The myth of “the few against the many” was created on the Jewish side….
(Another lie! It’s not a myth.)
39- No less important than the expulsion itself is the fact that the refugees were not allowed to return to their homes when the fighting was over, as is usual after a conventional war.
(Again, I ask you John. What conventional war was it usual to allow enemy refugees to return? No Answer? John, your side is stupefied and silent, isn’t it? John, once again, what war was it usual to allow enemy refugees to return? Ethnic Germans were expelled by the hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, from Czechoslovakia and Poland, etc., after the second world war. Once again, please John, I ask you. Where?)
August 18th, 2007 at 8:51 pm
Please address my point even if I am wrong, please address them.
Where you err is in your absolute refusal to see anything from the perspective of the other side and so to continue in the belief that “Israel is blameless.” This is an absurd premise, not to say conclusion.
#32 for example is a point that harms your side not in the least, to which you gratuitously lob charges of anti-Semitism. What does it cost you to acknowledge that they had their own perspective, one conditioned by a history of humiliation by native and European colonial powers? Why get ugly about that? It’s absurd.
#35 simple enough, how many Arabs remained in Palestine after the war of 1948? Why call the statement absurd, stupid, and a lie? Just look it up and tell us how many Arabs were living there before the war and then how many Arabs remained afterward. Let’s see the numbers.
#39 return of refugees? Well, let’s see Cyrus allowed the Jews to return to Judea in 539 BCE, didn’t he? And I believe the majority of the wars on the European continent did not result in substantial, permanent displacement of ethnic or linguistic groups (”ethnic cleansing”). People fled war zones and gradually returned when conditions were safe. The Norman Conquest of England resulted in no refugees at all, to my knowledge, though there were substantial social, cultural, legal, and linguistic changes. The peasants kept working away and the taxes went to different kings. The refugee crisis in Central Europe after WW II was a special case with a long and complex background and was played out differently in different places. For example, the Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force classified Displaced Persons into the categories of: evacuees, war or political refugees, political prisoners, forced or voluntary workers, Todt workers, former forces under German command, deportees, intruded persons, extruded persons, civilian internees, ex-prisoners of war, and stateless persons. Some were returned to their homes; some were not. Aside from Jews who feared persecution, most feared reprisals from communist governments. Don’t you want Israel to be held to a higher standard than Stalinist Iron Curtain countries? DP’s that couldn’t be repatriated were accepted by other countries. In any case, the point is that there was a tremendous international humanitarian effort undertaken to repatriate displaced persons, because that was the usual practice in conventional wars.
“Why should we have defined our borders? This is an asinine observation. Isn’t it?)”
It’s not asinine as long as Israel is demanding that the Arabs recognize “Israel’s right to exist” yet won’t say WHERE it has a right to exist.
August 18th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
Arab population of Israel in 1948 (prior to final wave of ethnic cleansing 1948-1950):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel
Of the estimated 950,000 Arabs that lived in the territory that became Israel before the war,[20] some 156,000 remained.[21]
That’s about 16%. In other words, “Almost no Arabs remained.” So, not absurd. Not stupid. Not a lie.
Footnote 20 cites Amrawi, Ahmad (December 9, 2003). The Palestinians of 1948. al-Jazeera.
Footnote 21 cites Dr. Sarah Ozacky-Lazar, Relations between Jews and Arabs during Israel’s first decade (in Hebrew).
http://lib.cet.ac.il/pages/item.asp?item=13336
(in Hebrew)
August 19th, 2007 at 12:51 am
It’s not asinine as long as Israel is demanding that the Arabs recognize “Israel’s right to exist” yet won’t say WHERE it has a right to exist. >>>>
Ultimately our borders will be from the the River Egypt to the Euphrates. I don’t demand anyone recognize my right to exist. We exist.
August 19th, 2007 at 6:25 am
John wrote: “The refugee crisis in Central Europe after WW II was a special case with a long and complex background and was played out differently in different places.”
German minorities in the Sudetenland and Danzig, Poland are two nearest in comparison to the Palestinian Arabs. Hitler demanded the Sudetenland on the pretext that the Sudeten German minority was suffering injustice at the hands of Czech officials in Prague, just like the Palestinian Arabs claim to suffer injustice at the hands of the Jews. The same held true in Danzig, Poland. Local Nazis controlled Danzig and they took their orders, as had the Sudeteners, from Berlin.
In other words, Germany used these ethnic Germans as pawns for its own selfish purposes, as pawns, just as the Arabs use the Palestinian Arabs as pawns.
According to Wikipedia, the majority of the flights and expulsions occurred in areas of today’s Czech Republic, Poland and Russia. Others occurred in territories of today’s Slovakia, Hungary, Serbia (predominantly in the Vojvodina region), Lithuania, Slovenia and other regions of Central and Eastern Europe.
During the period of 1944/1945 - 1950, more than 14 million Germans were forced to flee or were expelled as a result of actions of the Red Army, civilian militia and/or organised efforts of governments of the reconstituted states of Eastern Europe.
The areas, from which the Germans escaped, or which were ethnically cleansed, were subsequently re-populated by nationals of the states to which they now belonged, many of whom were expellees themselves from lands further east.
In the first few decades after the end of the war, estimates of deaths associated with the expulsions were in the range of 2-3 million. Since the 1970s, however, some historians have suggested downward revisions to 500,000 to 1.1 million. However, many historians still support estimates of 2 million deaths.
August 19th, 2007 at 6:56 am
Ultimately our borders will be from the the River Egypt to the Euphrates. I don’t demand anyone recognize my right to exist. We exist.
Israel refuses to negotiate with Hamas until they agree to “Israel’s right to exist” as it says in the PA Constitution.
August 19th, 2007 at 7:12 am
During the period of 1944/1945 - 1950, more than 14 million Germans were forced to flee or were expelled as a result of actions of the Red Army, civilian militia and/or organised efforts of governments of the reconstituted states of Eastern Europe.
Yes, Steve. They fled from Iron Curtain countries. The 14 million who escaped from Stalinist totalitarianism in Eastern Europe were the lucky ones Stalin didn’t send to gulags in Siberia. Everyone wanted out! The international community tried to repatriate the refugees because that was usual after conventional wars. So, Israel’s moral example for dealing with Palestinian refugees is Joseph Stalin and the ethnic Germans after WW II? This is your goofiest historical analogy yet.
August 19th, 2007 at 8:03 am
“In other words, Germany used these ethnic Germans as pawns for its own selfish purposes, as pawns, just as the Arabs use the Palestinian Arabs as pawns.”
Just as Tel Aviv uses the Jewish settlers.
August 19th, 2007 at 8:10 am
Israel refuses to negotiate with Hamas until they agree to “Israel’s right to exist” as it says in the PA Constitution. >>>>
Yes I know. I think this is silly. Can you imagine telling a neighbor, “I won’t speak with you or have any dealings with you until you recognize my right to exist.” (?) Why should I care if the Arabs recognize my right to exist? You exist. I exist. If someone is not willing to recognize our existence, so? Isn’t this the problem of the non-recognizer?
Yasir Arafat finally uttered these magic words and he continued to encourage his people to kill the Jews.
August 19th, 2007 at 8:15 am
Just as Tel Aviv uses the Jewish settlers.>>>>
My guess is, the mass of anti-settlement sentiment comes from these predominantly, left-leaning, yuppie-dominated coastal cities like Tel Aviv. To me, Tel Aviv seems like a big secular partying city. These are not ideologically driven Jews in Tel Aviv by and large. Tel Aviv is a party city. Have you visited Tel Aviv? I have. It’s clearly not like Jerusalem or Tzfat.
August 19th, 2007 at 8:24 am
Yes, Steve. They fled from Iron Curtain countries. The 14 million who escaped from Stalinist totalitarianism in Eastern Europe were the lucky ones Stalin didn’t send to gulags in Siberia. Everyone wanted out! The international community tried to repatriate the refugees because that was usual after conventional wars. So, Israel’s moral example for dealing with Palestinian refugees is Joseph Stalin and the ethnic Germans after WW II? This is your goofiest historical analogy yet. >>>>
Come on John. Israel doesn’t hold a candle to what the Soviet Union did. And can I blame them? Not really. Not after Hitler’s perfidious violation of the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression pact. Germans were ruthless. Didn’t they send these mobile killing units into Russia? Einsatzgruppen (sp?) I think it is fair, when you are attacked like this, to expel these ethnic minorities. Actually, this was part of the reason Americans did not trust Native Americans. Not that they were ethnically related to the British and the Spanish but they allied with them against the Americans during the Revolutionary War and there after. Therefore Israel would be justified expelling all these ethnic Arabs from our land in my opinion.
August 19th, 2007 at 8:30 am
It’s clearly not like Jerusalem or Tzfat.
Those countries that don’t recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel use “Tel Aviv” as a symbol of the Israeli government. That was my meaning. It is the Israeli government uses the settlers as pawns; not literally the city of Tel Aviv.
August 19th, 2007 at 8:35 am
I think it is fair, when you are attacked like this, to expel these ethnic minorities.
Then Stalin’s your man, Steve. Now do you understand why the rest of the international community objects to the expulsion of the Arabs and the expropriation of their villages, farms, fields, orchards, and homes? We don’t think Stalin was a good role model to emulate.
August 19th, 2007 at 8:44 am
“I think it is fair, when you are attacked like this, to expel these ethnic minorities.”
In the case of the Nazi Holocaust, it is at least understandable that Holland, Norway, Denmark, and France wanted the Germans out. In 1948 the Arabs had not been conducting a Nazi Holocaust against the Israelis, no concentration camps, no gas chambers, no genocide period. They had no real or actual connection to the Nazi Holocaust, except an emotional connection in the minds of Jews who felt they had escaped one Holocaust only to find themselves in another one. The Arab-Zionist War was no holocaust, and it certainly was not an extension of the Nazi Holocaust. The expulsion of the Arabs and particularly the expropriation of their villages and fields and farms was a grave injustice, at least to those of us who don’t look up to Stalin.
August 19th, 2007 at 9:18 am
Those countries that don’t recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel >>>>
You do not recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital?
August 19th, 2007 at 9:24 am
Then Stalin’s your man, Steve>>>>
No. Stalin was a brutal murderer, wasn’t he? Didn’t he murder tens if not hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of political opponents?
All I am saying is, given what the Germans did, I have some sympathy for these expulsion though not in the ruthless manner they were carried out. Same holds true for the ruthless manner American Indians were expelled. There was no need for this brutality and ruthlessness.
Jews were expelled penniless from most Arabs states following the 1948 war. Close to a million were expelled with nothing but the clothes on their backs. All their property and wealth was confiscated by the Arabs; plundered.
I do not remember reading of massive death. Maybe because Israel did so much to help these refugees. Maybe the Jews care about their own more than the Germans do?
August 19th, 2007 at 9:44 am
They had no real or actual connection to the Nazi Holocaust>>>
There was one Mohammed Said Haj Amin el Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem, Yasif Arafat’s uncle. According to historians, Haj Amin threw his lot in with the Nazis, placing at their disposal the prestige of his religious office. He had recruited Arab agents to drop behind the British lines as saboteurs. He helped raise two divisions of Yugoslavian Muslims for the SS. He facilitated the German entry into Tunisia and Libya. He had done his best to see that than none of his intended Jewish victims were diverted to Palestine on their way to the gas chambers. In 1943 he intervened personally with Reich Foreign Minister Ribbentrop to prevent the emigration of four thousand Jewish children from Bulgaria to Palestine.
Many Arab leaders were Nazi sympathizers and sympathetic to the Final Solution. Who are you kidding John.
Nazi sympathizers include Ahmed Shukairi, the first chairman of the PLO; Gamal Abdel Nasser and Anwar Sadat. Sadat sported a tie bearing swastikas on his historic visit to Jerusalem.
Egyptian daily, Al-Akhbar, on April 18, 2001: “Our thanks go the late Hitler who wrought, in advance, the vengeance of the Palestinians upon the most despicable villains on the face of the earth. However, we rebuke Hitler for the fact that the vengeance was insufficient.”
August 19th, 2007 at 9:49 am
“Those countries that don’t recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel >>>>
You do not recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital?”
The United States does not recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.
August 19th, 2007 at 9:54 am
“According to historians, Haj Amin threw his lot in with the Nazis”
So did Yitzhak Shamir and Menachem Begin. They were all two-bit, wannabe Nazi collaborators trying to hook up with Germany in case it won. Neither Husseini nor any Israeli had any real role in the Holocaust. None of them were Nazis wanted by the authorities or even listed in the Nuremberg index of war criminals. Give it up. There was no connection except emotionally in the mind of Jews, and in the lies concocted by Israeli propagandists trying to justify the expulsion of the Arabs and the expropriation of Arab land.
August 19th, 2007 at 9:59 am
In 1943 he intervened personally with Reich Foreign Minister Ribbentrop to prevent the emigration of four thousand Jewish children from Bulgaria to Palestine.
Ben Gurion tried to prevent the emigration of Jewish children to England instead of to Palestine to which he was trying to bring every Jew he could find anywhere in the world. He actually made the statement that “If I knew it was possible to save all [Jewish] children of Germany by their transfer to England and only half of them by transferring them to Eretz-Yisrael, I would choose the latter—-because we are faced not only with the accounting of these [Jewish] children but also with the historical accounting of the Jewish People.” (Righteous Victims, p. 162)
August 19th, 2007 at 10:04 am
You do not recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital?”
John: The United States does not recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. >>>>
I don’t care about the United States. I want to know whether you recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.
Bill Clinton and George W. Bush are both wimps.
According to Wikipedia: “The United States Jerusalem Embassy Act, passed by Congress on October 23, 1995 , states that “Jerusalem should be recognized as the capital of the State of Israel; and the United States Embassy in Israel should be established in Jerusalem no later than May 31, 1999″.
The act asserts that every country has a right to designate the capital of its choice, and that Israel has designated Jerusalem. Jerusalem is defined as the spiritual center of Judaism. Furthermore, it stipulates that since the reunification of Jerusalem in 1967, religious freedom has been guaranteed to all.
The Act was adopted by the Senate (93-5) and the House (374-37).
Since 1995, the relocation of the embassy from Tel Aviv has been suspended by the President semi-annually, each time stating that “[the] Administration remains committed to beginning the process of moving our embassy to Jerusalem”. As a result of the Embassy Act, official U.S. documents and web sites refer to Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
Section 214 of the Foreign Relations Authorization Act, 2003 states:
“The Congress maintains its commitment to relocating the United States Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem and urges the President […] to immediately begin the process of relocating the United States Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem”.
However, U.S. presidents, including George W. Bush and Bill Clinton, have argued that Congressional resolutions regarding the status of Jerusalem are merely “advisory”, stating that it “impermissibly interferes with the President’s constitutional authority”. [3] The U.S. Constitution reserves the conduct of foreign policy to the President and resolutions of Congress which make foreign policy are arguably invalid for that reason. The U.S. Congress, however, has the “power of the purse”, and could prohibit the expenditure of funds on any embassy located outside Jerusalem. The U.S. Congress has not taken this step.
Article (16) of the “Jerusalem Embassy Act:
“The United States conducts official meetings and other business in the city of Jerusalem in de facto recognition of its status as the capital of Israel.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:20 am
I want to know whether you recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.
I have no diplomats to exchange, Steve.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:29 am
Ben Gurion tried to prevent the emigration of Jewish children to England >>>
I’ve not studied this sad episode in detail. When you have a little extra time, you might visit this article.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1185893683641&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
I disagree with this author’s conclusions however. Nonetheless, there is much good information in the artice. The book “Perfidy” is available for reading on-line.
I find a lot to criticize in the way Ben Gurion, Chaim Weizmann, Mapai, the Jewish Agency and the American Jewish Establishment (Rabbi Stephen S. Wise, etc.) handled the extermination of the Jews. Seems to me, there was a great deal of “perfidy” to go around. I’ve got David S. Wyman’s “Abandonment of the Jews.” There are a number of good books available.
I would have found myself on the side of the more secular-right Irgunists — men like Hillel Kook and others — who did indeed attempt to save Jews but got nowhere with the Jewish Establishment who wanted to appease FDR and the British.
I’m nearly positive that you are wrong about Begin and the Irgun. You are confusing Begin with Avraham Stern, who according to historian Howard Sachar, “was convinced that Britain’s presence in the Middle East was inimical to the future development of the Jewish National Home and that henceforth all emphasis should be placed on an anti-British rebellion. (This I believe, during the war.) No other Jewish underground group was willing to go that far, not even Irgun Z’vai Le’umi.
According to historian Martin Gilbert, “Stern tried to make contact with Nazi Germany, hoping to sign a pact with Hitler which would lead to a Jewish State once Hitler had defeated Britain.
Seems to me, Stern was an utterly stupid, not to mention highly immoral, human being. Stern was shot dead by British (?) police.
Begin had nothing to do with the Nazis. Do you have any information that contradicts this?
August 19th, 2007 at 10:34 am
I want to know whether you recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.
I have no diplomats to exchange, Steve.>>>>
Guess that is all I am going to get from you; a dodge. I think we can safely assume that John does not recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s eternal capital.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:38 am
East Jerusalem is illegally occupied territory seized in 1967. An American embassy there would be in contravention of international law, like the Jewish settlements are. Therefore, the United States cannot recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. It is further expected that East Jerusalem will become the capital of the future Palestinian State.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:47 am
Husseini nor any Israeli had any real role in the Holocaust. None of them were Nazis wanted by the authorities or even listed in the Nuremberg index of war criminals. Give it up.>>>>
Seems to me John, there are not just a few historians and scholars that are critical of the Nuremberg trials. I’m pretty sure William Shirer (Rise and Fall of the Third Reich — a classic text) was critical. I just purchased a well-known book entitled “Blowback: The First Full Account of America’s Recruitment of Nazis, and its Disastrous Effect on our Domestic and Foreign Policy,” by Christopher Simpson.
I haven’t eve opened the book yet. Maybe you can read some of the review on Amazon. I think it is pretty well-known that the US recruited former Nazi criminals to help us in the Cold War against the former Soviet Union because the Nazis knew much about the Soviets. Only from what I’ve read, their help was minimal at best and at worst an unmitigated disaster.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:49 am
“I find a lot to criticize in the way Ben Gurion, Chaim Weizmann, Mapai, the Jewish Agency and the American Jewish Establishment (Rabbi Stephen S. Wise, etc.”
…along with a lot of other people, including every Jew who does not agree with your one-issue agenda: total Jewish settlement of Eretz Israel, and the entire land Araberfrei from the River of Egypt (?) to the Euphrates, just like (you think it was) in the Bible, except not the part about sharing it with Ishmael or Esau (apparently you have a bone to pick with YHWH there too).
August 19th, 2007 at 10:54 am
“Seems to me John, there are not just a few historians and scholars that are critical of the Nuremberg trials. I’m pretty sure William Shirer (Rise and Fall of the Third Reich — a classic text) was critical. I just purchased a well-known book entitled “Blowback: The First Full Account of America’s Recruitment of Nazis, and its Disastrous Effect on our Domestic and Foreign Policy,” by Christopher Simpson.”
You are simply describing your problem, your delusional world here once more. As I tried to explain, everyone in the world outside of your imaginary, one-man ghetto falls into one of two stereotypically-defined categories:
1) Nazis and Nazi-sympathizers / enablers
2) Jewish traitors and appeasers
Find a good listener. My ears are tired.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:16 am
“Seems to me John, there are not just a few historians and scholars that are critical of the Nuremberg trials…..
Find a good listener. My ears are tired. >>>
“My ears are tired.” Short for, “I cannot defend my position Steve.”
That’s fine John.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:18 am
“I think it is pretty well-known that the US recruited former Nazi criminals to help us in the Cold War against the former Soviet Union because the Nazis knew much about the Soviets.”
This is a good lesson in the danger of one-issue agendas, in this case anti-Communism and “the international Communist conspiracy” (jihad).
Whatever the errors, the Mufti was no rocket scientist or anti-Communist. They weren’t looking for him because he wasn’t a war criminal.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:20 am
“Short for, “I cannot defend my position Steve.”
Short for ‘I’m tired of being led from one conspiracy theory to another to another as you read off your litany of suspect individuals.’ It’s of no interest to anyone but you, Steve.
August 19th, 2007 at 11:58 am
Whatever the errors, the Mufti was no rocket scientist or anti-Communist. They weren’t looking for him because he wasn’t a war criminal>>>>>>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni#Arrest_and_Trial
Arrest and Trial
After the Second World War, al-Husayni fled to Switzerland, was detained and expelled back to Germany, was captured by the French and put under house arrest in France after he was sentenced by the Yugoslav Supreme Military Court to three years imprisonment and two years of deprivation of civil rights as convicted war criminal. During the Nuremberg Trials, Eichmann’s deputy Dieter Wisliceny testified that The Mufti was one of the initiators of the extermination of European Jewry and a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the initiation of the Final Solution. In 1948, Husayni escaped and was given asylum in Egypt. Jewish groups petitioned the British to have him indicted as a war criminal. The British declined because such a move would have added to their growing problems in Egypt and among Palestinians - where al-Husayni was still popular. Yugoslavia unsuccessfully sought his extradition.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
During the Nuremberg Trials, Eichmann’s deputy Dieter Wisliceny testified that The Mufti was one of the initiators of the extermination of European Jewry and a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the initiation of the Final Solution.
You can read Dieter Wisliceny’s Nuremberg testimony (affadavit) here. He says not one word about the Mufti:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/01-03-46.htm#wisliceny
If the Mufti was of interest in Israel, Shin Bet would have kidnapped him as they did Eichmann. He was living openly right across the border, I believe. It’s all a lie concocted by Israeli propagandists and apologists who wish to make a connection between Arabs and the Nazi Holocaust in order to justify the expulsion of the Arabs and the confiscation of their lands and properties.
August 19th, 2007 at 1:32 pm
“After the war, Amin al-Husayni, Mufti of Jerusalem, fled to Switzerland, was detained and put under house arrest in France, but escaped and was given asylum in Egypt.
I don’t believe there is a word of truth in any of this. Husseini fled Palestine because the British wanted to arrest him in connection with anti-British violence. He was not wanted ever for war crimes. He lived in Lebanon after the war; not Egypt! There are two major biographies of the old bastard, one by a Palestinian historian, the other by an Israeli historian. I doubt you will find any of this in either book. Alan Dershowitz has printed a mountain of false tales about the Mufti which he lifted from a rightwing columnist for the Jerusalem Post, Sarah Honig. My guess is that someone has dutifully funneled them into the Wiki article. Don’t believe everything you read (and cut and paste).
August 19th, 2007 at 1:55 pm
he was sentenced by the Yugoslav Supreme Military Court to three years imprisonment and two years of deprivation of civil rights as convicted war criminal
Three years??? This was probably in connection with his sponsorship of the SS Handzar Division in Bosnia. Not exactly what most people think of when you say “war criminal.” Real war criminals, like Dieter Wisliceny and Eichmann for example, were hanged; not given three year sentences!
August 19th, 2007 at 3:30 pm
John wrote: East Jerusalem is illegally occupied territory seized in 1967. An American embassy there would be in contravention of international law, like the Jewish settlements are.”>>>>>
So much for the validity of international law John. Does US Congress honor international law or not? What is the saying “the (international) law is an ass?”
The 1995 Jerusalem Embassy Relocation act says in part:
(a)Statement of the Policy of the United States.—
(1)Jerusalem should remain an undivided city in which the rights of every ethnic and religious group are protected;
(2)Jerusalem should be recognized as the capital of the State of Israel; and
(3)the United States Embassy in Israel should be established in Jerusalem no later than May 31, 1999.
August 19th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
The United States does not recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. The 1995 Jerusalem Embassy Relocation act was an attempt by the Congress to conduct American foreign policy and exceeded its constitutional bounds. Political grandstanding, is another way to put it.
August 19th, 2007 at 5:12 pm
I will address the Republican angle of this since I am a Republican.
http://www.ujc.org/page.html?ArticleID=32874
“During the 2000 presidential campaign George W. Bush promised that as President he would immediately “begin the process of moving the United States ambassador to the city Israel has chosen as its capital.” In June 2001, however, Bush followed Clinton’s precedent and used the presidential waiver to prevent the embassy from being moved.”
http://www.aijac.org.au/updates/Dec-00/211200.htm
“Earlier that month, responding to a request by the American Jewish Committee to spell out his views on Israel and Middle East peace (a request also made of, and fulfilled by, Vice President Gore), Governor Bush issued a ringing endorsement of a close U.S.-Israel relationship, making it clear that he would “always stand with Israel,” not attempt to “make Israel conform to [Washington’s] own plans and timetables” for peace, and would “never interfere in Israeli elections.” The Governor went even further, telling AJC:
“My support for Israel is not conditional on the outcome of the peace process. America’s special relationship with Israel precedes and transcends the peace process. And Israel’s adversaries should know that in my administration, this special relationship will continue even if they cannot bring themselves to make true peace with the Jewish state. Something else will happen when I take office in January 2001: I will set in motion immediately the process of moving the U.S. ambassador to the city Israel has chosen as its capital, Jerusalem.”
John, do you know what a sleazy, lying scumbag is? I do. Do you?
August 19th, 2007 at 6:48 pm
Did you really believe him? Bear in mind that he did not (does not) know his butt from third base. He had no earthly idea what he was promising. He is perhaps the most incompetent man ever to occupy the Oval Office. Also the most deceitful. I’ll agree with you there.
August 20th, 2007 at 3:10 am
The United States does not recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. The 1995 Jerusalem Embassy Relocation act was an attempt by the Congress to conduct American foreign policy and exceeded its constitutional bounds. Political grandstanding, is another way to put it. >>>>
John, this is an act of Congress. “An Act of Congress is a statute enacted by the United States Government which legally must be specifically empowered by the United States Constitution.” Did Bill Clinton or George W. Bush declare the act unconstitutional? Neither of these two presidents, Clinton or Bush, or their legal counsel, Justice Department, etc., have declared this law unconstitutional. They have cravenly exercised the waver provision. The question I have for you is, if so-called “international law” is sacrosanct, why would US Congress — a co-equal branch in our government — overrule international law? If international law is sacrosanct, why didn’t President Clinton and now President Bush simply state this Congressional act is illegal?
I found the following on Wikipedia:
Israel asserts: “There is no basis in international law for denying Israel’s establishing its capital in Jerusalem, because there is no binding treaty that makes the city a Corpus separatum”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_the_Arab-Israeli_conflict#Jerusalem
Jerusalem
Recognizing the controversial nature of sovereignty over Jerusalem, UNSCOP recommended that the city be placed under United Nations administration in the partition plan. This was approved by the General Assembly in November, 1947, accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs. However, the 1948-1949 war resulted in Israel occupying the western portion of the city and Jordan occupying the eastern portion. Israel made Jerusalem its capital in 1950, establishing governmental offices in areas it controlled. Soon afterwards, Jordan annexed the eastern part along with the remainder of the West Bank.
After the 1967 war, Israel put the parts of Jerusalem that had been captured during the war under its jurisdiction and civilian administration, establishing new municipal borders. Arguing that this did not amount to annexation at the time, subsequent legal actions have been interpreted as consistent with an annexation.
On July 30, 1980, the Knesset passed a basic law making “Jerusalem, complete and united…the capital of Israel.” Since then Israel has extended the municipal boundaries several times.
On October 6, 2002, Yasser Arafat signed the Palestinian Legislative Council’s law making Al Quds “the eternal capital of Palestine.”
International bodies such as the United Nations have condemned Israel’s Basic Law concerning Jerusalem as a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention and therefore hold that the establishment of the city as Israel’s capital is against international law. Consequently, countries have established embassies to Israel’s government outside of Jerusalem. Similarly, missions to the Palestinian National Authority are at the insistence of Israel’s government located outside of Jerusalem.
Israel has filed strenuous protests[5] against this policy, asserting that:
There is no basis in international law for denying Israel’s establishing its capital in Jerusalem, because there is no binding treaty that makes the city a Corpus separatum
The 1980 Basic Law is not a legal innovation and only affirms Israel’s long-standing position on Jerusalem
Israel has the sovereign right to establish its capital at the most meaningful place for its people, and its claim is unique
Objections to Jerusalem as Israel’s capital are political in nature, and not legal
August 20th, 2007 at 3:26 am
What happened with this act John? Do you know? Is the Jerusalem Embassy Relocation Act U.S. law?
“An Act of Congress is legislation that has passed both Houses of Congress and has been either approved by the President, or passed over his veto, thus becoming law. In other words, a statute or resolution adopted by both houses of the United States Congress to which one of the following events has happened:
1. Acceptance by the President of the United States,
2. Inaction by the President after ten days from reception (excluding Sundays) while the Congress is in session, or
3. Reconsideration by the Congress after a Presidential veto during its session.
August 20th, 2007 at 5:15 am
In the great scheme of things, and compared to the many other things that Bush has lied about and the other promises he has broken, where we locate our embassy in Israel is of little consequence to the American people, very low on most people’s lists. No whining, please. In a democracy you don’t get everything you want 100% of the time, and that goes for Congress, too.
August 20th, 2007 at 6:05 am
I’m not whining. If former President Clinton and current President Bush fear moving our ambassador to Israel’s capital because Muslims will be furious, what can I say? Seems pretty weak to me.
I am asking you a question about international law which you believe to be paramount, vs. an act of Congress which is now U.S. law. U.S. law seems to contradict international law. How do you square this?
August 20th, 2007 at 6:09 am
Article VI, U.S. Constitution. Ratified treaties are the SUPREME law of the land, superceding state and other federal laws. The Fourth Geneva Convention is the applicable treaty. Get over it.
August 20th, 2007 at 6:25 am
superceding state and other federal laws
No that’s not right. Superceding state laws. Treaties do become federal law, the supreme law of the land. If there is a conflict between federal law and a US treaty that has been ratified I don’t know how the President resolves it in terms of enforcement. Leah?
August 20th, 2007 at 6:33 am
What U.S. treaty conflicts with the United States law called the Jerusalem Embassy Relocation Act of 1995?
Article 6 says: This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
August 20th, 2007 at 7:46 am
John, if Bush thinks the Jerusalem Embassy Relocation Act is unconstitutional, why doesn’t he have his Justice Department take it to the U.S. Supreme Court? Why doesn’t he challenge the law?
August 20th, 2007 at 7:58 am
Interesting:
“They [the Jews] also demanded praying privileges in the Al-Haram for a set number of people per day or per week.”
“We rejected this as well, but we agreed that they could pray next to the [Wailing] Wall, without acknowledging any Israeli sovereignty over it. We relied on the resolution of Britain’s 1929 Shaw Commission. The Commission acknowledged that the Wall belongs to the Muslim Waqf, while the Jews are allowed to pray by it as long as they do not use a Shofar.”
(Article published by the London-based pan-Arabic daily Al-Hayat, Secretary-General of the PLO Executive Committee, Mahmoud Abbas)
August 20th, 2007 at 10:42 am
>>>>
“The source usually quoted in support of the charge of illegality in Israeli occupation of Judea and Samaria is the Fourth Geneva Convention. The charge, however, is not upheld by the text of the Fourth Geneva Convention. To the contrary, the convention is simply irrelevant to the issue. It is, after all, a document containing a text, easy to read and understand, and this is what it says in Clause Two:
“The present Convention shall apply to cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party.”
The territory wrested from Jordan by Israel (in a war of defense) was not territory of a High Contracting Party. Transjordan, Eastern Palestine, which was renamed Jordan after its invasion of Western Palestine and its illegal occupation of the provinces of Samaria and Judea, including the Old City of Jerusalem, did not thereby become their sovereign possessor — it was not a High Contracting Party at all, but an illegal occupier as a result of its aggressive war in 1948. It had no title whatsoever to land across the River Jordan.”
August 20th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
I have been over this BS argument with you for the last time, Steve. Jordan was a high contracting party. Please stop reposting this crap. You posted this same BS many threads back and here you are at it again as though nothing had been said. It’s such complete baloney. Israel was found by the International Court of Justice in the Hague to be in contravention of the Fourth Geneva Convention with regard to the settlements and to the separation wall, both of which were found to be illegal in July, 2004. If you have a disagreement with the ICJ you can take it up with them. The decision considered all the arguments and the verdict was reached. Their opinion is an advisory opinion, i.e., implementation can be blocked if a member of the Security Council vetoes implementation. The United States has done that. Israel gets off the hook again. Nevertheless, the decision stands:
http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Documents/icj20040709.pdf
August 20th, 2007 at 5:17 pm
“Why doesn’t he challenge the law? “
He doesn’t have to. The law was very likely just a money-raising stunt on the part of Congress.
August 20th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
John wrote: “Israel was found by the International Court of Justice in the Hague to be in contravention of the Fourth Geneva Convention with regard to the settlements and to the separation wall, both of which were found to be illegal in July, 2004. If you have a disagreement with the ICJ you can take it up with them.” >>>>
John, you never answered my question. What law is supreme here in the United Sates? A ruling by the International (Criminal) Court of Justice or a Congressional Act? You mislead me about the Article Six of the U.S. Constitution.
“The main point of Article Six is its declaration that this Constitution and ‘the laws of the United States’ that shall be made in pursuance thereof shall be the supreme law of the land, and that the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding.” (Mortimer J. Adler — We Hold These Truths, page 92-93)
You know full well that the Fourth Geneva Convention was written specifically with respect to Nazi enormities and atrocities. Germans conquered and occupied sovereign states deported whole populations and transferred parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupied.”
Jordan illegally occupied and annexed the West Bank following the 1948 War of Independence. Great Britian and Pakistan were the only nations that recognized Jordan’s illegal annexation.
The West Bank did not belong to Jordan under the terms of the British mandate. The last sovereign over the West Bank was the Ottoman empire. Fourth Geneva Convention is irrelevant to the issue at hand.
Besides, U.S. Congress by Congressional Act / Law, recognizes East Jerusalem as an indivisible part of Israel’s capital.
August 20th, 2007 at 6:30 pm
The Fourth GC makes no reference whatever to the legality of any territorial claims. It is international humanitarian law. It relates solely to the treatment of civilians who find themselves in battle zones. It is completely irrelevant and beside the point which side in the conflict has a just legal claim on the territory insofar as the Fourth GC is concerned. All that is necessary is that there be a conflict between high contracting parties. Here is what the ICJ ruled:
In particular, in paragraph 3 of Annex I to the report of the Secretary-General, entitled “Summary Legal Position of the Government of Israel”, it is stated that Israel does not agree that the Fourth Geneva Convention “is applicable to the
occupied Palestinian Territory”, citing “the lack of recognition of the territory as sovereign prior to its annexation by Jordan and Egypt” and inferring that it is “not a territory of a High Contracting Party as required by the Convention”.
91. The Court would recall that the Fourth Geneva Convention was ratified by Israel
on 6 July 1951 and that Israel is a party to that Convention. Jordan has also been a party
thereto since 29 May 1951. Neither of the two States has made any reservation that would
be pertinent to the present proceedings.
I didn’t mislead you about anything. See #118.
Go read this. Please get caught up on your reading. I am done talking with you about it because you insist on re-posting bogus arguments that were proven to be fallacious months ago. They are all made moot by the following written in 2004:
http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Documents/icj20040709.pdf
August 20th, 2007 at 7:08 pm
As to the Court’s opinion on the applicability of the Fourth Geneva Conventions, read paragraphs 89-101:
http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Documents/icj20040709.pdf
The bottom line:
101. In view of the foregoing, the Court considers that the Fourth Geneva Convention is applicable in any occupied territory in the event of an armed conflict arising between two or more High Contracting Parties. Israel and Jordan were parties to that Convention when the 1967 armed conflict broke out. The Court accordingly finds that that Convention is
applicable in the Palestinian territories which before the conflict lay to the east of the Green Line and which, during that conflict, were occupied by Israel, there being no need for anyenquiry into the precise prior status of those territories.
August 20th, 2007 at 7:26 pm
I will return to the Fourth Geneva Convention John but I am trying like the dickens to keep you focused but you find it sooo difficult to focus.
Once yet again, I ask you John. Please don’t give me this grandstanding bit or dodge.
The 1995 Jerusalem Embassy Relocation act is a “Statement of the (official) Policy of the United States.”
“Jerusalem should remain an undivided city in which the rights of every ethnic and religious group are protected;”
“Jerusalem should be recognized as the capital of the State of Israel; and
“the United States Embassy in Israel should be established in Jerusalem no later than May 31, 1999.”
If east Jerusalem is recognized by the International Court of Injustice and under the Geneva Convention as “illegally occupied territory of a High Contracting Party,” what gives John?
What gives with U.S. law?
August 20th, 2007 at 7:34 pm
96. The Court would moreover note that the States parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention approved that interpretation at their Conference on 15 July 1999. They issued a statement in which they “reaffirmed the applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention to the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem”.
Subsequently, on 5 December 2001, the High Contracting Parties, referring in particular to Article 1 of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, once again reaffirmed the “applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention to the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem”.
They further reminded the Contracting Parties participating in the Conference, the parties to the conflict, and the State of Israel as occupying Power, of their respective obligations.
97. Moreover, the Court would observe that the ICRC, whose special position with respect to execution of the Fourth Geneva Convention must be “recognized and respected at all times” by the parties pursuant to Article 142 of the Convention, has also expressed its opinion on the interpretation to be given to the Convention. In a declaration of 5 December 2001, it recalled that “the ICRC has always affirmed the de jure applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention to the territories occupied since 1967 by the State of Israel, including East Jerusalem”.36
98. The Court notes that the General Assembly has, in many of its resolutions, taken a position to the same effect. Thus on 10 December 2001 and 9 December 2003, in resolutions 56/60 and 58/97, it reaffirmed “that the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949, is applicable to the
Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and other Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967”.
99. The Security Council, for its part, had already on 14 June 1967 taken the view in resolution 237 (1967) that “all the obligations of the Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War . . . should be complied with by the parties involved in the conflict”. Subsequently, on 15 September 1969, the Security Council, in resolution 271 (1969), called upon “Israel scrupulously to observe the provisions of the Geneva Conventions and international law governing military occupation”.
Ten years later, the Security Council examined “the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967”. In resolution 446 (1979) of 22 March 1979, the Security Council considered that those settlements had “no legal validity” and affirmed “once more that the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949, is applicable to the Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem”. It called “once more upon Israel, as the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously” by that Convention. On 20 December 1990, the Security Council, in resolution 681 (1990), urged “the Government of Israel to accept the de jure applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention . . . to all the territories occupied by Israel since 1967 and to abide scrupulously by the provisions of the Convention”. It further called upon “the high contracting parties to the said Fourth Geneva Convention to ensure respect by Israel, the occupying Power, for its obligations under the Convention in accordance with article 1 thereof”. Lastly, in resolutions 799 (1992) of 18 December 1992 and 904 (1994) of 18 March 1994, the Security Council reaffirmed its position concerning the applicability ofthe Fourth Geneva Convention in the occupied territories.
100. The Court would note finally that the Supreme Court of Israel in a judgment dated 30 May 2004, also found that: “The military operations of the [Israeli Defence Forces] in Rafah, to the extent they affect civilians, are governed by Hague Convention IV Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land 1907 . . . and the Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War 1949.”
This is why the U.S. does not have its embassy in Jerusalem, Steve. It would be in contravention of international law.
August 20th, 2007 at 7:40 pm
I am trying like the dickens to keep you focused but you find it sooo difficult to focus.
How many times do I have to tell you to read #118?
August 21st, 2007 at 9:15 am
John wrote: “96. The Court would moreover note that the States parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention approved that interpretation at their Conference on 15 July 1999. They issued a statement in which they “reaffirmed the applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention to the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem”.
Subsequently, on 5 December 2001, the High Contracting Parties, referring in particular to Article 1 of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, once again reaffirmed the “applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention to the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem”.
They further reminded the Contracting Parties participating in the Conference, the parties to the conflict, and the State of Israel as occupying Power, of their respective obligations.>>>>
John,
Who is “they?” Where were these conferences held and who attended? Were Israeli elected leaders present. Does “they” mean Israeli leaders or European anti-Semites?
August 21st, 2007 at 9:16 am
Article 1 merely states:
The High Contracting Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for the present Convention in all circumstances.
August 21st, 2007 at 9:21 am
You wrote: “This is why the U.S. does not have its embassy in Jerusalem, Steve. It would be in contravention of international law.”>>>>
This is nonsense John and you know it. If this were the case, former President Bill Clinton’s legal counsel and advisers would have told him to explain his exercise of the six month waiver provision on THIS basis alone; that it controvenes international law.
Same holds true for Bush. Instead what we get from these leaders is that it would anger the Palestinian Arabs and harm the “peace” process, which indeed it likely would harm the “peace” process. In my mind this would be a good thing!
August 21st, 2007 at 9:23 am
John wrote: 96. The Court would moreover note that the States parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention approved that interpretation at their Conference on 15 July 1999. They issued a statement in which they “reaffirmed the applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention to the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem”.
Subsequently, on 5 December 2001, the High Contracting Parties, referring in particular to Article 1 of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, once again reaffirmed the “applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention to the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem”.
They further reminded the Contracting Parties participating in the Conference, the parties to the conflict, and the State of Israel as occupying Power, of their respective obligations.>>>>>
This is all incredibly misleading. Who is “they?” Israeli elected leaders? If it was, they were incredibly foolish!
August 21st, 2007 at 9:32 am
96. The Court would moreover note that the States parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention approved that interpretation at their Conference on 15 July 1999.>>>>
John, can you provide a link to this again? I want to read this at the site. Thanks.
August 21st, 2007 at 1:27 pm
The statement is from the Conference of High Contracting Parties to the Geneva Conventions held in July, 1999. “They” refers to the “States parties.”
You’ll have to look it up yourself. You won’t accept their statement as legitimate in any case, and it won’t matter who said it. I’m not going to put another minute into it.
August 21st, 2007 at 1:37 pm
I did a google search. This is what you are citing?
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/f45643a78fcba719852560f6005987ad/234b16e8f405e70a85256caa00663b61!OpenDocument
CAIRO INTERNATIONAL MEETING ON FOURTH GENEVA CONVENTION
ADOPTS FINAL DOCUMENT
August 21st, 2007 at 4:29 pm
That is a press release dated June, 1999 announcing a meeting to be held on July, 1999. I know you don’t read anything I post, but do you even read what you yourself post?
August 21st, 2007 at 4:34 pm
When you get up to 2001 this will help
http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/5FLDPJ#1
August 21st, 2007 at 5:53 pm
1. This Declaration reflects the common understanding reached by the participating High Contracting Parties to the reconvened Conference of High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention.
“…The participating High Contracting Parties reaffirmed the applica-bility of the Fourth Geneva Convention to the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem. Furthermore, they reiterated the need for full respect for the provisions of the said Convention in that Territory. Taking into consideration the improved atmosphere in the Middle East as a whole, the Conference was adjourned on the understanding that it will convene again in the light of consultations on the development of the humanitarian situation in the field.”
5. The participating High Contracting Parties stress that the Fourth Geneva Convention, which takes fully into account imperative military necessity, has to be respected in all circumstances.>>>>>
Who were the participating High Contracting Parties? I did not read where it said. Do you? Was America a participatant.
>>>>Annexe 2 - Conference of High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention: statement by the International Committee of the Red Cross
Geneva, 5 December 2001
>>>>>>>
Red Cross:
http://books.google.com/books?id=trU7nY-T-4EC&pg=PA143&lpg=PA143&dq=count+folke+bernadotte+used+for+nazi+intelligence+handed+out+passports+to+nazis&source=web&ots=sBIm51v0wF&sig=13t5BpBYCskTdOCaTLCR0VpBZK0#PPA143,M1
August 21st, 2007 at 5:56 pm
Red Cross helps terrorists:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525873520&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
August 21st, 2007 at 6:00 pm
Wikipedia
Inaction of the Red Cross
The International Red Cross did relatively little to save Jews during the Holocaust and discounted reports of the organized Nazi genocide, such as of the murder of Polish Jewish prisoners that took place at Lublin that the Red Cross discounted. At the time, the Red Cross justified its inaction by suggesting that aiding Jewish prisoners would harm its ability to help other Allied POWs. In addition, the Red Cross claimed that if it would take a major stance to improve the situation of those European Jews, the neutrality of Switzerland, where the International Red Cross was based, would be jeopardized. Today, the Red Cross acknowledges its passivity during the Holocaust, and has apologized for this.[1]
August 21st, 2007 at 6:16 pm
Same old, same old. You’ve explained to us before that the International Red Cross is a nest of Jew-hating Nazis and that you hold them accountable etc., etc.. The ICRC is a private humanitarian organization and they are the official keepers and monitors of the Geneva Conventions which Israel signed as a High Contracting Party in 1951. I’m afraid the issue is not what the ICRC did or didn’t do before 1951, but what Israel did and didn’t do after signing in 1951.
August 21st, 2007 at 6:30 pm
I accept your word that Israel signed the Conventions. I do not however believe when Israel signed them they had any inkling they applied to Mandatory Palestine. Had Israel gone across the Jordan river into sovereign Jordan and deported Jordanians and replaced them with Jewish settlements in Jordan, perhaps then you could say Israel was in violation but Jews lived in Judea and Samaria before the Jordanians invaded and occupied these territories after the 1948 war. It was Jordan that expelled the Jews from the territories. Arabs do not want any Jews in their territories.
When Israel concluded the Camp David peace accords with Egypt, thereby giving up the Sinai for a worthless piece of paper, Israel expelled all the Jews from the Sinai from the beautiful settlement of Yamit. Ariel Sharon conducted this expulsion of Jews. Later it was Gaza. Now the Arabs want Judea and Samaria Judenrein (Jew-free).
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_egypt_campdavid_1978.php
……From September 5 through September 17, 1978, twelve days of secret negotiations were conducted at Camp David between Sadat and Begin, mediated by US President Jimmy Carter. The Israeli-Egyptian negotiations were concluded by the signing of two agreements at the White House. The agreements were based on UN resolutions 242 and 338, and were meant to constitute a basis for peace between Egypt and Israel, as well as to reach “a just, comprehensive, and durable settlement of the Middle East conflict” for all neighbors willing to negotiate with Israel.
The first dealt with the future of the Sinai and peace between Israel and Egypt, to be concluded within three months. Israel agreed to withdraw from all of the Sinai, within three years, and to dismantle its air bases near the Gulf of Aqaba and the town of Yamit. Egypt promised full diplomatic relations with Israel, and to allow Israel passage through the Suez Canal, the Strait of Tiran, and the Gulf of Aqaba.
August 21st, 2007 at 6:31 pm
“The Secret War Against The Jews…” Good grief, Steve. Where do you find these tabloid grade conspiracy books?
August 21st, 2007 at 6:47 pm
” I do not however believe when Israel signed them they had any inkling they applied to Mandatory Palestine.”
What a crock. Absolutely ridiculous. I don’t think you even know what the Geneva Conventions are, Steve. You need to go back and read them and see for yourself. They are online including with commentaries.
As I tried to explain, the Fourth Geneva Conventions have absolutely nothing whatever to do with the legality or illegality of territorial claims by parties at conflict. The Geneva Conventions are not about land. They are about civilians caught up in battle zones. They are about nations agreeing to leave civilians out of it, which is the whole basis for the international condemnation of attacks on civilians by terrorists! Israel is for the Genevan Conventions when the terrorists are getting attacked. It just doesn’t want to be held accountable for its own deeds.
Was this a battle zone? Yes. Were Israel and Jordan high contracting parties? Yes. Then the Geneva Conventions apply. The General Assembly and the Security Council have said so many times from the beginning. The Internation Committee of the Red Cross has said so several times. The High Contracting Parties have said so several times. The International Court of Justice has said so. And the Israeli Supreme Court has said so. Get over it, Steve. These issues were settled long ago. When you begin to see just how far out of line Israel is with the rest of the world on this, how far beyond the law, it seems to me the world has been more than patient with Israel.
August 21st, 2007 at 7:01 pm
I understand there are people that do not consider John Loftus and Mark Aarons reputiable. I have their book as a reference. I don’t take everything they write as gospel. I try to cross reference my sources and seek corroboration; confirmation.
I do not outright dismiss their work as you and others do. Most writers and historians have a bias. I generally appreciate some subjectivity as opposed to boring facts.
I am looking at a book entitled “A World Lit Only by Fire: The Medieval Mind and the Renaissance: Portrait of an Age” by William Manchester.
Several of the reviews think Manchester is a flame-thrower or subjective, ignorant of Medieval history, what ever but most admit he is an interesting read. I’ve got to try to understand the bias of the reviewers. Manchester is apparently very critical of the corruption in the Catholic Church. Many Christians are deeply offended by any criticism. I know because I have Catholic friends who study all kinds of apologetics concerning Pope Pius XII and his silence during the Holocaust.
I like controversial writers. I don’t accept everything at face value. I read many different writers.
What do you know about Aarons and Loftus that makes them not worthy of reading? How are they wrong about the Red Cross? Red Cross did have Nazi sympathizers. No? Red Cross did help Nazis escape Europe. No?
August 21st, 2007 at 7:16 pm
John wrote: “What a crock. Absolutely ridiculous. I don’t think you even know what the Geneva Conventions are, Steve. You need to go back and read them and see for yourself. They are online including with commentaries.”>>>>>
John, I think I have told you, I am not an international lawyer or a scholar. I will leave it to international lawyers and scholars to argue what I believe to be international law made largely by people unfriendly toward Jews and Israel. So I will post the following written by scholars. Now you explain to me where these scholars are wrong since you apparently do claim to be a scholar:
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_israel_4th_geneva_2001.php
Why was Israel condemned in 2001 for violating the Fourth Geneva Convention?
The Fourth Geneva Convention on Rules of War was adopted in 1949 by the international community in response to Nazi atrocities during World War II. The international treaty governs the treatment of civilians during wartime, including hostages, diplomats, spies, bystanders and civilians in territory under military occupation. The convention outlaws torture, collective punishment and the resettlement by an occupying power of its own civilians on territory under its military control.
The Arab group of the United Nations started trying to invoke the Fourth Geneva Convention against Israel in 1997 and in February 1999 managed to get the General Assembly to adopt a resolution calling for a special UN session in Geneva to examine “persistent violations” by Israel. Although reduced in scope by the United States, a special UN meeting held in Geneva on July 15, 1999 unanimously passed a resolution stating that the Fourth Geneva Convention does apply to Israeli settlements in the “occupied territories.” The closed-door meeting lasted a mere 45 minutes.
When the al-Aqsa intifada started in September 2000, the Arab group renewed its demand for a full reconvening of the High Contracting Parties. In response, Switzerland (the Depository for the Fourth Geneva Convention with the responsibility to convene meetings), in consultation with other countries, drafted a declaration that was critical of Israel, but was far more moderate than the draft document submitted by the Organization of Islamic Conference.
Switzerland convened the meeting of the High Contracting Parties of the Fourth Geneva Convention on December 5, 2001 to discuss the alleged Israeli violations of the Convention in its treatment of the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) and Gaza Strip. The United States, Israel and Australia boycotted the meeting seeing that it was another attempt by anti-Israel forces to inappropriately leverage, for political advantage, international agreements that have no applicability to the Palestinian situation.
At the very short meeting, less than an hour, the assembled High Contracting Parties did adopt a resolution censuring Israel. This was done in spite of the fact that there was no presentation of evidence or debate, just a politically motivated censure of Israel. With the al-Aqsa intifada more than a year old, there was no discussion of Palestinian terrorism, only complaints against Israel. In the 50+ years since its adoption, the Fourth Geneva Convention was convened only to discuss Israel, and never met to deal with world atrocities including those in Bosnia, Rwanda, Kosovo, Sudan, Congo, Tibet, and other troubled nations.
Unfortunately, this use of The Fourth Geneva Convention served to validate the Palestinian tactic of using the international community, and the United Nations in particular, as a forum for airing grievances against Israel, rather than resolving such matters through bilateral negotiations and the Oslo peace process. The same motivation and tactics were evident at the September 2001 UN World Conference Against Racism in Durban, South Africa, in where important issues of racism and prejudice were ignored in favor of highly politicized and inflammatory anti-Israel and anti-Jewish resolutions.
Moreover, the reconvening of High Contracting Parties to discuss the Palestinian Arabs politically motivated agenda dangerously politicized and violated the spirit of the Geneva Convention itself and its important humanitarian purpose.
Sybil Kessler, a policy associate for Hadassah and an observer at the meeting, commented:
It´s a quiet crime. Very diplomatically, very quietly, 140 countries have convened and left just to reinforce the fact that the international community still doesn´t accept Israel on the same playing field as the rest of world.
Israel responded to the resolution with an official release that included this paragraph:
The statement adopted at the meeting is clearly one-sided and contains sections with unsubstantiated allegations against Israel. The declaration ignores entirely the continuous and vicious incitement against Israel in the Palestinian media and in school textbooks, which together with actions by organs of the Palestinian Authority contribute to creating a cult of suicide bombers who have wreaked havoc in Israeli towns and villages, killing and maiming innocent civilians in discotheques, restaurants and markets.
August 21st, 2007 at 7:26 pm
John, I am going to say this once. I hope not to repeat it. You can complain to Mitchell and Mitchell can ban me if he wishes because I am going against the rules on this forum but there comes a time for honesty.
I believe you are a Jew-hater to the depths of your Christian heart. I believe your hatred of Jews and of the Jewish state is so intense, you can never be persuaded by reason.
There are some human beings such as yourself that are utterly consumed by Jew-hatred. This is my opinion of you, your denials notwithstanding.
August 21st, 2007 at 7:33 pm
The Geneva Conventions cut both ways Steve:
http://www.btselem.org/english/Gaza_Strip/20070625_Gilad_Shalit.asp
http://www.btselem.org/english/special/20070801_Detention_of_Palestinian_Government_Seniors.asp
The have nothing to do with land. They are about protecting civilians. The West Bank and Gaza were lands captured in battle in 1967. The country which occupies such lands, regardless whether captured in offensive operations or defensive, may not introduce settlements of its own population into the occupied territory. This is the legal opinion of virtually the entire world and it has been repeated many times, actually on an annual basis. Israel can scoff at the law if it chooses, but it cannot claim that the treaty it signed is not applicable or that it did not know.
Some subjectivity? Controversial writers? “The First Full Account of America’s Recruitment of Nazis”? “The Secret War Against The Jews”? Sounds like you are into pretty hard-core anti-Semitic conspiracies, judging from these titles and the lurid anti-Islamic material you post frequently alleging anti-Semitism by Muslims. What if you were to quit doing that?
August 21st, 2007 at 7:47 pm
“There are some human beings such as yourself that are utterly consumed by Jew-hatred. This is my opinion of you, your denials notwithstanding.”
This comes as no surprise, Steve. It’s nothing new; just a sad restatement of where you are right now and the way everybody looks to you from that place. I hope you will soon find someone you can trust who will help you to see your own rage and to walk away from it.
August 21st, 2007 at 8:00 pm
“one-sided and contains sections with unsubstantiated allegations against Israel”
The meeting concluded that the Fourth Geneva Conventions are applicable to the Occupied Palestinian Territories.
What allegations???
All that one needs to know is that the said territories were captured in military action, are under occupation by a High Contracting Party, and that therefore said Party is accountable to the Fourth Geneva Conventions. The Israeli Supreme Court has said the very same thing. Why the outrage?
August 21st, 2007 at 8:16 pm
the statement adopted at the meeting is clearly one-sided
That’s not true. Take a look again:
http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/5FLDPJ#1
Only a few paragraphs are directed specifically at the Occupying Power (Israel). The rest are directed “to all parties” to remind them of the humanitarian obligations they committed themselves to under the Fourth Geneva Convention.
August 22nd, 2007 at 4:39 am
You wrote: “The meeting concluded that the Fourth Geneva Conventions are applicable to the Occupied Palestinian Territories.”>>>>
The meeting of Jew-haters concluded…. I don’t care what these Jew-haters concluded. This is the reason why I question your motives because you believe the conclusions of Jew-haters and self-hating Jews. I re-read a few articles by legal scholars.
Over and over again, the point is made, Jordan had no legal claim to Judea and Samaria. Nor did Egypt have a legal claim to Gaza. Jordan held no sovereignty over these territories. Geneva Conventions are irrelevant to the issue. The West Bank belongs to Israel. It is ours. We are not “illegally” occupying land that belonged to another sovereign. Israel rightly rejects the interpretation of the Fourth Geneva Convention applying it to Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza:
“Israel rejects the interpretation of the Fourth Geneva Convention applying it to Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, stating that those territories were captured in 1967 as a result of a defensive war against countries which had illegally occupied them since 1948.
“The recommendations regarding Israel’s security fence issued by the International Court of Justice in The Hague in July 2004 have focused Israeli attention on the relevancy and applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention to the occupied West Bank and Gaza. The ICJ based its deliberations on the assumption that the convention applies. Israel has long insisted that it does not, because these territories were not conquered from a sovereign state and did not constitute such a state prior to their occupation.
“……the convention does not apply due to the technical reason that the West Bank and Gaza Strip were not some other state’s recognized sovereign territory when we occupied them in 1967.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/03/the_real_tragedy_in_israel.html
Professor Talia Einhorn, Adjunct Professor of Law, Tel Aviv University, in The Status of Palestine/Land of Israel and Its Settlement Under Public International Law published by NATIV Online in 1993, advises
‘In 1967, following the Six Day War, the territories of Yesha [Judea, Samaria, Gaza], which had been originally designated for the Jewish national home according to the Mandate document, returned to Israeli rule. Leading international law scholars opined that Israel was in lawful control of [Judea, Samaria, Gaza], that no other state could show better title than Israel to [the] territory, and that this territory was not ‘occupied’ in the sense of the Geneva Convention, since those rules are designed to assure the reversion of the former legitimate sovereign which, in this case, does not exist. Israel was therefore entitled to declare that it has exercised its sovereign powers over [Judea, Samaria, Gaza].
‘In practice, however, for political and other reasons, Israel exercised its sovereign powers only with respect to East Jerusalem. Regarding the rest of [the territories], Israel’s official position was that Israel was entitled to annex them, and that, since they had not been taken from a legitimate sovereign, the Fourth Geneva Convention and the Hague Regulations 1899/1907 were inapplicable there. Nonetheless, Israel chose voluntarily to observe and abide by the humanitarian provisions included therein.’
One of the ‘leading international scholars’ she refers to was the late Eugene W. Rostow, Dean of Yale Law School, US Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs between 1966 and 1969. The New Republic, on April 23, 1990, published his article entitled, Historical Approach to the Issue of Legality of Jewish Settlement Activity, in which he argued
‘…The Palestine Mandate, recognizing “the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country,” is dedicated to “the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, …’
‘…The State Department has never denied that under the Mandate “the Jewish people” have the right to settle in the area. Instead, it said that Jewish settlements in the West Bank violate Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949…..[which] provides that the occupying power “shall not deport or transfer part of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.”
‘…But the Jewish settlers in the West Bank are volunteers. They have not been “deported” or “transferred” by the government of Israel, and their movement involves none of the atrocious purposes or harmful effects on the existing population the Geneva Convention was designed to prevent. Furthermore, the Convention applies only to acts by one signatory “carried out on the territory of another.” The West Bank is not the territory of a signatory power, but an unallocated part of the British Mandate…
‘…The controversy about Jewish settlements in the West Bank is not, therefore, about legal rights but about the political will to override legal rights’
August 22nd, 2007 at 4:55 am
All that one needs to know is that the said territories were captured in military action, are under occupation by a High Contracting Party….>>>>>>
You continue to miss the point. These territories were part of Mandate for the Jewish national home in Palestine. They were captured in a military action. The point is, they were captured from an illegal occupier in a war of self-defense.
August 22nd, 2007 at 5:10 am
http://pnews.org/ArT/ExP/BasIS.shtml
What is the Basis for the Legal Status of Israel and the Settlements
Professor Eliav Shochetman *
Hebrew University, Jerusalem
from Makor Rishon, 27th August, 1999
Excerpted from a larger article by Dr. Eliav Shochetman, who is the Dean of Sha’arei Mishpat College (Law School) and Professor Emeritus of Jewish Law at The Hebrew University of Jerusalem.
The Historic Bond Becomes a Legal Right (1920)
In 1920, after World War I had ended, the Allied Supreme Council that assembled at San Remo, Italy, decided, in accordance with the Balfour Declaration of November 2, 1917, to assign the mandate for the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine to Great Britain. This turned the right of the Jewish people over Eretz Israel into a right recognized by international law.
The historic bond that the Jewish people had with Eretz Israel consequently became a right legally recognized by the 52 members of the League of Nations. The United States joined the League at a later time, not having been a member of the international organization at the time. [and held a separate forum with identical final documents in 1925, establishing a homeland for the Jews in Palestine. ~Shosh]
The significance of the recognition of the right of the Jewish people to Eretz Israel by international law was in its acknowledgment of the justice of the Jewish and Zionist claim to the land that had been stolen from the Jewish people by foreign occupiers and their right to have it restored to them. The recognition also voided the legal validity of the occupation of Eretz Israel by foreigners as well as the expulsion of Jews from it.
The Mandate over Palestine, which anchors the rights of the Jewish people to their country in international law, states that “No Palestine territory shall be ceded or leased to, or in any way placed under the control of, the Government of any foreign Power,” and that “The Administration of Palestine . . . shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage . . . close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.
The British government did not fulfill the aim of the Mandate where immigration and settlement were concerned (the decrees of the White Paper) in gross violation of its obligations under the Mandate. Additionally, it abused its role as the guardian of Eretz Israel for the purpose of the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people. In September 1922, just months after the confirmation in writing of the Mandate, Britain decided to separate the eastern bank of the Jordan from the western part and transfer control of the eastern side to the Arabs (Transjordan).
Subsequently, only western Eretz Israel - from the Mediterranean to the Jordan - the “West Bank” - remained, in the eyes of international law, as the area designated for the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people. It was this separation on which the peace treaty with Jordan was based, whereby Jordan kept the land on the eastern bank of the Jordan River and became the ‘palestinian homeland’. This separation specifically reserved the West Bank for Eretz Yisrael even as it gave the Eastern bank, which should ALSO have been part of Israel, away.
This legal status of this area - in the view of international law - has not changed to this day. Even the United Nations partition plan of 1947 was rejected by the Arab world, and on May 15, 1948, the day the British Mandate over Palestine ended, the Arabs attacked the newly born state with the express goal of annihilating it. It should be stressed that the partition plan was in fact no more than a recommendation, and had no power to bind the sides, and this too was, as stated, rejected by the entire Arab world and therefore became null and void in the eyes of international law.
Did the Jewish People Lose its Rights to Those Areas of Eretz Israel Lost in the War of Independence, 1948?
The answer to this question is no. Egypt did not establish sovereignty over the Gaza Strip and the sovereignty of Jordan over Judea and Samaria was recognized by only two countries, Britain and Pakistan. In fact, Jordan never held legal sovereignty over the areas of Judea and Samaria, and has relinquished any claims to sovereignty there. The status and rights of Jordan over the parts of Eretz Israel it occupied for 19 years were at most the rights of an occupying force.
In consideration of the fact that Israel succeeded in restoring this territory in a war of defense that had been forced upon it, while Egypt and Jordan took the same territories by means of illegal aggression in the War of Independence, Israel’s rights over the areas of Judea and Samaria take priority over the rights of the hostile Arab countries. These areas, therefore - from the point of view of international law - never ceased to be part of the western Eretz Israel designated in its entirety for the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people, including of course, the right of Jews to settle in their land as established in the British Mandate.
Did the End of the British Mandate over Eretz Israel Generate Any Change in the Rights of the Jewish People Over its Land From the Point of View of International Law?
The answer to this question is also no. Article 80 of the UN charter was written to defend the validity of rights determined in the Mandate even after the mandate system no longer exited. After the areas of western Eretz Israel were liberated from the Arab occupier in the Six Day War (1967), returning them to the control of the Jewish people, all the obligations according to international law remained as they were. The purpose of these areas, after all, was that they serve as the basis for the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people.
It is in fact the duty of the Jewish state, which replaced the British Mandate, to fulfill these obligations. Israel’s status in these territories, therefore, is in no way that of an occupying force, because in accordance with the outlook that has guided the State of Israel since its establishment, Israel does not annex territory that before 1948 was part of mandatory Eretz Israel. (i.e. Israel does not annex it’s own land)
Israel does not consider itself to have the status of an occupying force because it never considered the Arab countries that invaded Eretz Israel in May 1948 as having any sovereign rights over the territory of Eretz Israel they occupied. They were merely military occupiers. After this territory was restored to the control of the State of Israel, it became the obligation of the Jewish state - both from a Jewish Zionist standpoint as well as from the point of view of international law - to realize the rights of the Jewish people over the Western part of Eretz Israel in its entirety, including the right of settlement.
UN Resolution 242 Does Not Require a Return to the 1967 Borders The media often refers to settlements and the presence of the IDF in the West Bank and Gaza as “illegal under international law.” This is the Palestinian viewpoint, which is derived from their citation of UN Resolution 242, which states “the withdrawal of Israel’s forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict [1967].” The authors of this resolution have stated publicly and repeatedly that they omitted the words “all territories occupied” and FURTHER, they added phraseology which called for “an accepted settlement” between the parties because “all States have the right to live within secure and recognized boundaries.”
It is evident both from the paper reprinted today and UN Resolution 242 that Israel does INDEED have every right to sovereignty and settlement in the West Bank and/or Gaza.
The Geneva Convention Does Not Void the Mandate
This position, which views the right of Jewish settlement in Judea, Samaria and Gaza as anchored in the rules of international law, is supported by a once-highly placed figure in the American administration, one of the drafters of the celebrated UN Resolution 242, a Deputy Secretary of State and professor of international law, Eugene Rostow. He wrote,
“The primary objective of the Palestine Mandate was different [from the mandate over Arab countries] . . . The Allies established the Palestine Mandate in order to support the national liberation of ‘the Jewish people’ because of ‘their historic connection to the land.’ The mandate encouraged the Jews to found a national home in Palestine, and gave them the right to establish a “National Home” in Palestine and granted them the right to make close settlements without prejudice to ‘the civil rights and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine.’ The term ‘civil rights’ in this sentence is carefully distinguished from ‘political rights.’”
“The right of the Jewish people to settle in Palestine has never been terminated for the West Bank . . . The only way which the mandate right of settlement in the West Bank can be brought to an end is through the annexation of the area by an existing state or by the creation of a new one.” Rostow stresses that the right that arose by virtue of the Mandate is perpetual, as long as the territory of the Mandate is not turned into an independent state or does not become part of an existing one.
Therefore, from the point of view of international law, the recognized right of the Jewish people over all areas of western Eretz Israel is completely valid, including the right to settle throughout the territory.
Rostow also rejects the claim that the act of settlement violates article (49)6 of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, which forbids an occupying power from deporting or transferring parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies. Professor Rostow writes that the settlers of Judea, Samaria and Gaza were not transferred to live there as a result of deportation or “transfer.” “The Jewish settlers in the West Bank are most emphatically volunteers,” he writes. “They have not been “deported” or “transferred” to the area by the Government of Israel and their movement involves none of the atrocious purposes or harmful effects on the existing population that is the goal of the Geneva Convention to prevent [deportations for the purpose of extermination, slave labor, etc.].” (This article was written to ENSURE that another Holocaust is prevented. ~Shosh)
Furthermore, writes Professor Rostow, the Geneva Convention applies only to acts by one signatory country “carried out in the territory of another. The West Bank is not the territory of signatory power, but an unallocated part of the British Mandate. Even if the Geneva Convention could be interpreted as to prohibit acts of settlement during the period of occupation, it can in no way bring to an end the rights granted by the Mandate. It is hard, therefore, to see how even the most narrow and literal-minded reading of the Convention could make it apply to the process of Jewish settlement in the territory of the British Mandate west of the Jordan River.”
And he continues, “But how can the Convention be deemed to apply to Jews who do have a right to settle in the territories under international law? - a legal right assured by treaty and specifically protected by Article 80 of the United Nations Charter, generally known as the “Palestine Article.” The Jewish right of settlement in the area is equivalent in every way to the right of the existing population to live there.”
Regarding the Geneva Convention, it should be pointed out that the willingness of the Government of Israel to recognize the validity of the Geneva Convention over the areas of Judea, Samaria and Gaza was merely and exclusively for humanitarian reasons, and not for any other purpose. Consequently, Moshe Negbi’s claim (Moshe Negbi, a well-known legal commentator for the Ma’ariv daily) that “If Israel can annex East Jerusalem, then by the same token, Egypt can declare tomorrow that New York is part of Egypt,” is completely baseless. New York is part of a sovereign state - the United States of America - meaning that Egypt cannot declare sovereignty over it. Judea, Samaria and Gaza, on the other hand, are not part of any country and furthermore, from the point of view of international law, belong to the Jewish people.
Accordingly, the State of Israel - the state of the Jewish people - is entitled to declare sovereignty over the areas which according to international law belong to it. It certainly has the right to allow Jews to settle there, pursuant to international law.
August 22nd, 2007 at 7:16 am
John wrote: “Some subjectivity? Controversial writers? “The First Full Account of America’s Recruitment of Nazis”? “The Secret War Against The Jews”? Sounds like you are into pretty hard-core anti-Semitic conspiracies, judging from these titles and the lurid anti-Islamic material you post frequently alleging anti-Semitism by Muslims. What if you were to quit doing that?”>>>>>>>
It’s called “Blowback: The First Full Account of America’s Recruitment of Nazis and Its Disastrous Effect on The cold war, Our Domestic and Foreign Policy.”
by Christopher Simpson
This is not hardcore, anti-Semitic conspiracy. Do you consider Publishers Weekly and Library Journal organizations that are into conspiracy mongering?
http://www.amazon.com/Blowback-Americas-Recruitment-Disastrous-Domestic/dp/002044995X/ref=sr_1_2/002-1979974-3878405?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187784686&sr=1-2
From Publishers Weekly
The postwar recruitment of Nazis and collaborators by agencies of the U.S. government stemmed, the author illustrates, from intense East-West competition after the German surrender, prodded by the prospect of war between the superpowers. Simpson, a freelance journalist, reveals that many covert operations of the early Cold War era involved the use of operatives known to have committed crimes against humanity during the Second World War. The underlying theme here is the corruption of American ideals in connection with this hushed-up recruitment policy in the name of anticommunism. In elaborating the policy’s “negative blowback,” Simpson emphasizes the long-term corrosive effect on American intelligence agencies in particular.
Copyright 1988 Reed Business Information, Inc. –This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.
From Library Journal
As the story of Andrija Artukovic, the high-ranking fascist Croatian who found refuge in the United States, and books by John Loftus, Howard Blum, and others tell us, a disgraceful chapter in U.S. Cold War history lies in the systematic use of Nazi and fascist war criminals to help the anti-Soviet aims of American intelligence and national security agencies. Germans and East Europeans were eagerly recruited into and rose to key positions in the Cold War crusade. Simpson’s careful researchwhich underscores the part of the Catholic Church and reveals the role of George Kennan in this policyraises profound questions for scholars, lawmakers, and citizens alike. Henry Steck, SUNY Coll. at Cortland
Copyright 1988 Reed Business Information, Inc. –This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.
August 22nd, 2007 at 7:57 am
Sounds like you are into pretty hard-core anti-Semitic conspiracies, judging from these titles and the lurid anti-Islamic material you post frequently alleging anti-Semitism by Muslims. >>>>>
I don’t see a lot of difference between Muslim terrorists and their sympathizers. Maybe their sympathizers are more dangerous because they live as citizens amongst us as though they embrace civilized norms when in fact they embrace savagery and barbarism.
August 22nd, 2007 at 5:13 pm
“The point is, they were captured from an illegal occupier in a war of self-defense.”
No you are the one who keeps missing the point. The territory in question was a battle zone. It was not part of Israeli territory prior to the war in 1967. It has been occupied since the war by the IDF. The foregoing triggers the Fourth Geneva Conventions. Everything else you mention is totally irrelevant because this is humanitarian law and only speaks to the treatment of civilians in war zones and not to territorial claims by opposing sides. You may not be a lawyer but you can read, can’t yoü? You’ll either have to read the treaty for yourself or take my word for it. I recommend you read it for yourself. Israel and Jordan signed in 1951. The war in question was in 1967.
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/INTRO/380?OpenDocument
August 22nd, 2007 at 5:27 pm
No you are the one who keeps missing the point. The territory in question was a battle zone. It was not part of Israeli territory prior to the war in 1967. >>>
You are so wrong. My gosh. Jimmy Carter lied in his book by stating that the 1948 Armistice lines were accepted by Israel and Jordan as permanent borders! Only in Carter’s own distorted hate-filled mind. Nothing could be further from the truth especially (especially) on the part of the Arab illegal aggressor-occupiers.
It was indeed part of Israel prior to the war in 1967. It was the British Mandatory for the Jewish national homeland. If it wasn’t in your imagination, who was the territory in question a part of? Who was the sovereign in Judea and Samaria prior to 1967.
August 22nd, 2007 at 9:09 pm
It was indeed part of Israel prior to the war in 1967. It was the British Mandatory for the Jewish national homeland.
Ah, yes. I keep forgetting the fantasy version of reality you cling to. Dear, dear. You overlook not only the 1967 war, and the one in 1948, but also a couple of millennia of history before that. “Judea and Samaria” haven’t existed as geopolitical realities for about two thousand years.
Only in Carter’s own distorted hate-filled mind.
A good example of psychological projection, Steve. A very good example.
August 22nd, 2007 at 10:19 pm
Publishers Weekly and Library Journal
Book trade publications. These are blubs; not reviews.
August 23rd, 2007 at 5:30 am
“It was the British Mandatory for the Jewish national homeland.”
So you want to return to the 1947 borders of the UN Partition of Palestine? Or the status ante 1947 map of the British Mandate of Palestine? Where is it exactly that you are lost in time?
August 23rd, 2007 at 5:49 am
John wrote: “You overlook not only the 1967 war, and the one in 1948, but also a couple of millennial of history before that. “Judea and Samaria” haven’t existed as geopolitical realities for about two thousand years.”
I cited from an earlier article, Professor Talia Einhorn, Adjunct Professor of Law, Tel Aviv University, in The Status of Palestine/Land of Israel and Its Settlement
Under Public International Law published by NATIV Online in 1993.
Einhorn advised:
‘In 1967, following the Six Day War, the territories of Yesha [Judea, Samaria, Gaza], which had been originally designated for the Jewish national home according to the Mandate document, returned to Israeli rule. Leading international law scholars opined that Israel was in lawful control of [Judea, Samaria, Gaza], that no other state could show better title than Israel to [the] territory, and that this territory was not ‘occupied’ in the sense of the Geneva Convention, since those rules are designed to assure the reversion of the former legitimate sovereign….’
Unlike Einhorn, I am not a legal scholar. It would stand to reason that the intent of the Fourth Geneva Convention was designed to assure reversion of the former legitimate sovereign since it was made in response to Germany’s occupation of land Germany had no right to occupy because it belonged to a legimate sovereign. If we are to apply the Fourth Geneva Convention to Israel’s settlements, security barrier, etc., as you, the United Nations General Assembly and the ICJ do, who is the former legitimate sovereign?
August 23rd, 2007 at 6:16 am
So you want to return to the 1947 borders of the UN Partition of Palestine? Or the status ante 1947 map of the British Mandate of Palestine? Where is it exactly that you are lost in time? >>>>>>
Had the Arabs accepted the November 1947 UN Partition Plan, I suppose Israel would be bound to accept these borders. But they did not accept the plan, instead opting for war. Why would I wish to go back to this 1947 plan?
Rachel Neuwirth lists the supporting data that constitute the founding documents of the Jewish Nation in Palestine:
�The Balfour Declaration (1917): The British government favored the creation of a ‘Jewish national home’ in Palestine.
�The Covenant of the League of Nations (1919, with later amendments), as part of the Treaty of Versailles following WWI and the dismemberment of the Ottoman and other empires:� Article 22 of the Covenant recognized the existence of ‘peoples not yet able to stand by themselves’, and established ‘the principle that the well—being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilization.’ It further states that ‘tutelage of such peoples should be entrusted to advanced nations … who are willing to accept it, and that this tutelage should be exercised by them as Mandatories on behalf of the League.’
�The San Remo Resolution� (April 1920) included Palestine in the Mandatory system and incorporated the provisions of the Balfour Declaration, thus recognizing Palestine as a ‘Jewish national home’ with the imprimatur of the international community.� This was later spelled out in Article 95 of the Treaty of Sevres (August 1920).� Even though Turkey did not ratify the Treaty of Sevres, Article 95 maintains its specific validity in international law.
�The Franco—British Boundary Convention� (December 1920) established the northern boundaries between Palestine and Syria—Lebanon, thus officially rectifying the previous Sykes—Picot secret agreement of 1916.
�The Mandate for Palestine (July 1922) was officially conferred to Britain as the Mandatory Power.� The preamble of this document declares that ‘recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country.’� This Mandate, approved by 52 states, unambiguously assigns Palestine to the Jews and ‘encourage[s] …close settlement by Jews, on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes’ (Article 6).� In what could be seen as a violation of previous agreements, the British carved the exclusively Arab Emirate of Transjordan out of Palestine and inserted Article 25, thus ‘postpon[ing] or withhold[ing] application of such provisions of this mandate’ as they applied to the Palestine portion located to the east of the Jordan River.
�The Anglo—American Convention (December 1924) further strengthened the international position with regard to Palestine, as established by the community of nations, and recognized Britain as the Mandatory Power.� It can be argued that the American government later failed in its obligations to uphold the provisions of the Mandate by not opposing the several British White Papers issued in the 1930s which limited the immigration of Jews to Palestine, in violation of Britain’s Mandatory commitments.
�The United Nations Charter (1945): Article 80 is quite clear in maintaining the national rights acquired through a Mandate voted by the then defunct League of Nations.� Thus, the national rights of the Jewish people to ‘Palestine’ have not been abrogated to this day.
August 23rd, 2007 at 4:41 pm
Why would I wish to go back to this 1947 plan?
Well you have me a little confused then. You said the lands Israel seized in 1967 were already part of Israel because they were part of the “British Mandatory of Palestine.”
It was indeed part of Israel prior to the war in 1967. It was the British Mandatory for the Jewish national homeland.
Now, the British Mandate of Palestine officially came to an end when the State of Israel was founded in 1948. So you must be talking about something before 1948. But the State of Israel did not exist then, so how could the lands have been part of Israel at that time?
August 23rd, 2007 at 5:22 pm
The United Nations Charter (1945): Article 80 is quite clear in maintaining the national rights acquired through a Mandate voted by the then defunct League of Nations.� Thus, the national rights of the Jewish people to ‘Palestine’ have not been abrogated to this day.
August 23rd, 2007 at 5:25 pm
You wrote: “Now, the British Mandate of Palestine officially came to an end when the State of Israel was founded in 1948. So you must be talking about something before 1948. But the State of Israel did not exist then, so how could the lands have been part of Israel at that time?”
Can you answer the following John?
The United Nations Charter (1945): Article 80 is quite clear in maintaining the national rights acquired through a Mandate voted by the then defunct League of Nations.� Thus, the national rights of the Jewish people to ‘Palestine’ have not been abrogated to this day.
August 23rd, 2007 at 8:34 pm
The Court summarized the essence of Rostow’s (Israel’s) case as follows:
“Israel explains that Jordan was admittedly a party to the Fourth Geneva Convention in 1967,
and that an armed conflict broke out at that time between Israel and Jordan, but it goes on to observe that the territories occupied by Israel subsequent to that conflict had not previously fallen under Jordanian sovereignty. It infers from this that that Convention is not applicable de jure in those territories.”
And this is essentially the point you are making also, that Jordanian sovereignty was not established and that therefore the “title” of the Mandate to that land was not broken 1948-1967.
The Court considered that in its ruling and decided the argument was not valid:
“95. The Court notes that, according to the first paragraph of Article 2 of the Fourth
Geneva Convention, that Convention is applicable when two conditions are fulfilled: that there exists an armed conflict (whether or not a state of war has been recognized); and that the conflict has arisen between two contracting parties. If those two conditions are satisfied, the Convention applies, in particular, in any territory occupied in the course of the conflict by one of the contracting parties.
The object of the second paragraph of Article 2 is not to restrict the scope of application of the Convention, as defined by the first paragraph, by excluding therefrom territories not falling under the sovereignty of one of the contracting parties. It is directed simply to making it clear that, even if occupation effected during the conflict met no armed
resistance, the Convention is still applicable.
This interpretation reflects the intention of the drafters of the Fourth Geneva Convention to protect civilians who find themselves, in whatever way, in the hands of the occupying Power. Whilst the drafters of the Hague Regulations of 1907 were as much concerned with protecting the rights of a State whose territory is occupied, as with protecting the inhabitants of that territory, the drafters of the Fourth Geneva Convention sought to guarantee the protection of civiliansregardless of the status of the occupied territories, as is shown by Article 47 of the Convention.
That interpretation is confirmed by the Convention’s travaux préparatoires. The
. The drafters of the second paragraph of Article 2 thus had no intention, when they inserted that paragraph into the Convention, of restricting the latter’s scope of application. They were merely seeking to provide for cases of occupation without combat, such as the occupation of Bohemia and Moravia by Germany in 1939.”
Conference of Government Experts convened by the International Committee of the Red Cross (hereinafter, “ICRC”) in the aftermath of the Second World War for the purpose of preparing the new Geneva Conventions recommended that these conventions be applicable to any armed conflict “whether [it] is or is not recognized as a state of war by the parties” and “in cases of occupation of territories in the absence of any state of war” (Report on the Work of the Conference of Government Experts for the Study of the Conventions for the Protection of War Victims, Geneva, 14-26 April 1947, p.
July, 2004
August 23rd, 2007 at 10:26 pm
Here again is the Fourth Geneva Convention. Article 2 is the one referred to in the previous post 169. Article 49 is the one prohibiting the introduction of settlements into occupied territories.
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/380?OpenDocument
August 24th, 2007 at 6:42 am
I was reading some of the past statements made by U.S. presidents on Jewish settlements in Judea and Samaria and I suppose east Jerusalem and Gaza. Carter was the most vehement that the settlements were “illegal.” I guess Reagan was the most lenient:
http://www.fmep.org/reports/vol07/no1/08-us_government_policy_on_israeli_settlement_in_the_occupied_territories_1967_1996.html
“President Ronald Reagan was determined to forge a “strategic consensus” with Israel and was therefore less inclined to dispute continuing Israeli settlement. The writings of former Under Secretary of State Eugene V. Rostow offered legal cachet to Reagan’s revision of U.S. policy, explained in a February 2, 1981, interview:
“As to the West Bank and the settlement there, I disagree with the previous administration as they referred to them as illegal. They’re not illegal–not under U.N. resolutions that leave the West Bank open to all people, Arab and Israeli alike. . . .”
“In Reagan’s view, Israeli settlement was not illegal, but merely “ill-advised” and “unnecessarily provocative.”
It seems to me US policy has shifted all over the place John. If Israel’s ‘occupation’ of these territories occupied by Jordan between 1949 and 1967, were illegal, why did U.S. Congress overwhelmingly pass the Jerusalem Embassy Relocation Act, which according to you, the UN and the ICJ is contrary to international law?
The bottom line for me is that this has nothing to do with legality or morality but politics in so far as the International Court of Justice is concerned. It’s not about what is legal or right but what is “POLITIC.”
In other words, “In Reagan’s view, Israeli settlement is not illegal, but merely “ill-advised” and “unnecessarily provocative.”
It’s “Ill-advised.”
Ill-advised: synonym for impolitic.
August 24th, 2007 at 9:57 pm
U.S. policy is based on U.S. politics, which does shift and has a domestic component, domestic constitutencies. However, U.S. presidents have in the main stuck closely to international law, have been respectful of the Geneva Conventions. The obligations nations have under the Geneva Conventions are something that most nations take very seriously.
The U.N. and the Hague and the ICRC have been unbelievably patient with Israel on the Jewish settlements in the Palestinian territories, it seems to me. The United States has blocked any enforcement of the Court’s opinion regarding the settlements and the wall. All they can do is to continue to urge Israel to fulfill its obligations under the Geneva Conventions. Big deal. I don’t see what your complaint is.
August 25th, 2007 at 7:34 am
My complaint is with man-made law. Take the Fist Amendment to the Constitution’s Bill of Rights. “Congress shall make no law….abridging the freedom of speech or of the press….” etc.
This man-made law clearly enunciates an absolute right to speech. These very wise men who wrote the amendment could not have predicted its insidious effects when taken to the extremes the language invokes. In some European countries speech is more circumscribed. For instance, in Germany and France I believe Holocaust denial is a crime punishable by law whereas here in the U.S. it is not. Here in the U.S., we have imams who are inciting violence against American citizens and it is protected speech even though we are ostensibly at war with “terrorists” and “terrorism.”
On the other hand, lets take the Ten Commandments. I cannot think of any one of the moral commamdments that does not have universal application for all time. For instance: “You shall not commit adultery.” No need to find exceptions to this rule or hold that the law has limited usefulness for a limited period of time.
The Fourth Geneva Convention was crafted by men for very specific enormities committed by Nazi Germany in the countries she occupied. The Convention was written by men who I believe had no idea the thing might be applied in a situation like Israel’s, thus leaving it to others to reinterpret according to their proclivities.
Jews have had a long history with the nations and overall it has not been a positive experience. You want me to place my trust in the fair-mindedness, the justice and the righteousness of these men and women in the United Nations and the International Court of Justice where it comes to the Jews. As a Jew, I don’t trust the fair-mindedness and justice of these men and women.
I know you don’t like the man and I strenuously disagree with Alan Dershowitz on Israel because he believes in a two state solution. On page 143 of his latest book “The Case For Peace” he writes, “The United Nations’ disdain for Israel is long-standing and beyond dispute as Israel moves closer to making peace with the Palestinians. From its “Zionism equals racism” resolution in 1975 through Kofi Annan’s lame rhetorical defense of the UN’s Israel-specific resolutions — “Can the whole world be wrong?” — it has consistently treated Israel as the “Jew” among nations.
“UN hate has actually accelerated in recent years. After voting for the creation of the Jewish state and admitting it to the General Assembly, The UN, especially following Israel’s victory in the Six Day War of 1967, has turned against that nation. Professor Irwin Cotler, not the minister of justice and attorney general of Canada, point to the reconvening of the Geneva Convention on December 5, 2001, as a prime example of discriminatory treatment. Fifty-two years after its adoption in 1949, the contracting parties of the Geneva Convention met again in Geneva to put Israel in the dock for violating the convention. Until that time, not one country in the international community was ever brought before the contracting parties of the Geneva Convention — not Cambodia with regard to genocide, not the Balkan states with regard to ethnic cleansing, not Rwanda with regard to genocide, not Sudan or Sierra Leone with regard to the killing fields in those countries. When POLITICS (EMPHASIS MINE) overruns the law, the result is prejudice to the Geneva Convention and to the universality of its principles.”
September 2nd, 2007 at 12:11 am
You can’t reason with people like Steve and “real voice for peace.”
They are so intent on being innocent victims. Makes me wonder if they actually feel guilty for their racism and have to cover it up by blaming it on God’s “preference” for Jews (poor God; he gets blamed for a lot of war) or by blaming the Palestinians who they consider inferior, even animalistic.
I am so sick of listening to this whining by people who have such a huge chip on their shoulder that it blinds them to reason.
Sadly, this self-centeredness affects both sides of this conflict. My husband, a pacifist of Swiss Anabaptist heritage, who was a doctor in Nazareth for years, calls all these discussions “simultaneous monologues.” Nobody listens.
September 9th, 2007 at 7:14 am
My complaint is with man-made law.
From “A Man for All Seasons” on abrogating law for ends deemed more worthy than the laws:
[Thomas More talks with his ambitious underling, William Roper]
Roper: “So now you’d give the devil the benefit of law?”
More: “Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the devil?”
Roper: “I’d cut down every law in England to do that.”
More: “Oh, and when the last law was down, and the devil turned on you, where would you hide, Roper, all the laws being flat? This country is planted thick with laws from coast to coast, man’s laws not God’s, and if you cut them down — and you’re just the man to do it — do you really think that you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then?
“Yes, I’d give the devil the benefit of the law, for my own safety’s sake.”
The Geneva Conventions - man-made though they be - are for the protection of all. They were written in the first place one may say for the protection of the Jewish people, lest the enormities of the Nazis be repeated. But they are really for the protection of all. We scoff at them at our peril.